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Author Topic:   Dinosaurs and the reduced felt effect of gravity
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 1 of 121 (100346)
04-16-2004 4:32 AM


Ted Holden is an original thinker who may be familiar to net old timers. Using various arguments, Ted has argued that the size and dimensions of dinosaurs indicate that that gravity must have been less at the time they lived. Classic aspects of this have been scaled comparisons with weight lifter Bill Kazmaier and the two thirds power law. Some of Ted's arguments are available at Megafauna and the attenuated gravity of the antique system at Ted's own bearfabrique pages.
Now, it seems, Ted has scored a major coup. A TV program in Japan has apparently reported his ideas, in some detail. Ted's web pages include a set of screen shots from this program.
Sadly, the text is nearly all in Japanese or Chinese, and there is no associated explanation given for English readers. However, the images are quite recognizable to those familiar with these notions.
Ted himself appears in the program, in page 6 of screen shots.
Bill Kazmaier is on page 9.
The two thirds power law is on page 13.
Basically, Ted argues from the size and dimensions of dinosaurs that the felt effect of gravity was very different in the past to what it is now. The screen shots don't seem to consider how this could occur.
It is important to note that Ted's arguments for a reduced felt effect of gravity do not imply any particular physical cause for the reduction. Ted's approach has been to give empirical arguments for a reduced gravity in the past, which he considers conclusive; and then to theorize on what the cause could be.
Originally he proposed that it was due to tidal forces from Saturn at a time when Earth was in close orbit around Saturn. He has since recognized that this is not physically plausible. His current proposal, presented at Neo Catastrophism Overview of Prehistory, is that gravity is an "electrostatic dipole effect" and "gravity might have been attenuated in an age of heightened electrostatic charge on the Earth's surface". These ideas are based on the work of independent researcher Ralph Sansbury.
Please note that arguments for gravity having a reduced effect in the past stand or fall on their own merits, and are not refuted simply by finding problems with this proposed theory of gravity and electromagnetism.
Ted is not a creationist, but he does think that evolution is complete nonsense; and the evolution of humanity especially so. His ideas are a startling variation on the anti-evolution views most people are familiar with. These issues have been touched upon by redwolf in another thread, and I am hoping he might come and explain the matter further in this thread.
But even if not, I am presenting this brief introduction, as fairly as I can, for others to explore and enjoy. I have not attempted to refute any of these ideas; that would be a little bit pass, and might spoil their charm. However, if anyone actually wants to debate the matter I'll be happy to give cordial engagement. redwolf, perhaps?
Cheers -- Sylas

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by redwolf, posted 04-16-2004 4:10 PM Sylas has not replied
 Message 114 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-18-2004 2:35 AM Sylas has not replied
 Message 118 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-19-2004 9:52 AM Sylas has not replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 30 of 121 (100605)
04-17-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by redwolf
04-17-2004 12:07 AM


redwolf writes:
Sorry, I'd simply prefer to take the Army and Bechtel's word over yours on that one.
Nonsense. I am confident you have done no such thing.
I am pretty certain that you are not taking the work of the Army or Bechtel at all; but are working at second hand from other sources -- almost certainly Michael Sanders -- who represents on his own behalf what HE thinks that the Army and the Bechtel Corporation might be capable of. At least Sander's own comments, although ridiculous, are not misrepresented as being based on the word of the Army or of Bechtel. The actual words in question are:
The Acropolis [at Baalbek] is supposed to have been a Roman Temple dedicated to the god Jupiter-Baal, but no classical scholar has yet been able to explain how three massive cut stones could have been lifted to rest on a substructure 23ft. high. Neither Bechtel nor the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the leading experts on heavy lifting and moving can do that feat today even with the most sophisticated machinery. Each stone after all weighs in the region of 1,200 tons.
--Baalbek Megaliths, Michael Sanders 1989
You could prove me wrong by giving any reference anywhere to anyone who actually quoted the words of the Army or of Bechtel, or who identifies any official representative who made this ridiculous assertion. My head is on the chopping block for you; you may bluff or bluster, but I am sure you won't give a source or a name or a reference to substantiate the notion that you are relying on the word of the Arm or of Bechtel.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by redwolf, posted 04-17-2004 12:07 AM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by redwolf, posted 04-17-2004 9:14 PM Sylas has not replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 39 of 121 (100731)
04-18-2004 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by 1.61803
04-18-2004 1:50 PM


Re: When did it change?
1.61803 writes:
Hi Redwolf, I was mistaken, your pictograph looks like a wildebeest not a cape buffalo. redwolf's dinosaur
See photo 3 of the 17 on the slide show on that page. The somewhat spikey mane of the wildbeest is a far better match to Ted's pictures than the large plates of the Steggasourus. The image is not directly linkable, unfortunately.
Also, for those interested, here is a web site on No webpage found at provided URL: Moving Large Objects, which includes some pictures of moving the lighthouse; and pictures from ancient records of how large statues were moved.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by 1.61803, posted 04-18-2004 1:50 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by redwolf, posted 04-18-2004 11:51 PM Sylas has not replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 48 of 121 (100864)
04-19-2004 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by redwolf
04-19-2004 2:56 AM


Re: When did it change? how old the rock?
redwolf writes:
The missing image which the moderator "fixed" is a picture of the USS Iowa, BB61.
Webshots - Desktop Wallpaper and Screen Savers
The problem is not due to the moderator... that URL is not accessible. All the moderator did was reduce the size of pictures so that they did not extend the width of the page beyond the normal page width of a browser. Having a very large image in posts tends to make the whole page a bit hard to read.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by redwolf, posted 04-19-2004 2:56 AM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by redwolf, posted 04-19-2004 11:06 AM Sylas has not replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5260 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 90 of 121 (101327)
04-20-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by redwolf
04-20-2004 1:45 PM


Re: When did it change? how old the rock?
redwolf writes:
Either that, or do it in a world where gravity is less of a problem. That's the conclusion most of the people studying the problem are coming to at present.
http://www.bearfabrique.org/japanscreens/index.htm
It is one thing to propose ...interesting... new ideas to challenge existing paradigms.
But to dream up an argument from authority; suggesting that "most of the people studying this problem" are coming to a conclusion that gravity used to be reduced in effect is just being dishonest.
The TV program you are citing here is not an indication of anything much. It is produced by Office Kei, which is apparently a small company in Japan which exists in order to give production assistance to others who want to produce a TV program. They don't just produce things off their own bat; someone uses them to help produce the program. Who would that be, in this instance? My guess is Ted Holden himself, perhaps with financial support from others in the neo-catastrophist community. Certainly I have never seen anyone else actually advocating this notion. Some neo-catastrophists certainly like to applaud anyone who takes on conventional science in some way, but they are understandably leery of actually making a public statement to the effect that they are coming around to share Ted's gravity nonsense.
Good luck to him; it's fine to try and present ideas in this way.
But if you are going to say that reduced gravity is a conclusion of "most people" working on this problem, you need to name someone. Ted Holden I know about already. He is very brash, but not particularly competent with the necessary physics. Is there anyone actually working on the dinosaur dynamics who thinks Ted has a ghost of a case?
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 1:45 PM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 8:52 PM Sylas has not replied
 Message 94 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 9:12 PM Sylas has not replied

  
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