Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-18-2019 12:43 AM
24 online now:
AZPaul3, DrJones*, PaulK, PsychMJC, Tanypteryx (5 members, 19 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Post Volume:
Total: 853,982 Year: 9,018/19,786 Month: 1,440/2,119 Week: 200/576 Day: 3/98 Hour: 3/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
45
6
789Next
Author Topic:   Dinosaurs and the reduced felt effect of gravity
redwolf
Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 76 of 121 (101169)
04-20-2004 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by crashfrog
04-20-2004 3:59 AM


>The arm of that crane is considerably longer than any sauropod's neck, not to mention heavier...

It also has structural support (the suspension cables), which the saur's neck didn't. Remove the cables and watch what happens.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2004 3:59 AM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2004 2:39 PM redwolf has not yet responded

  
redwolf
Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 77 of 121 (101171)
04-20-2004 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by NosyNed
04-19-2004 10:56 PM


Re: Have no reply? pity.

Like I say, I try to reply to intelligent posts and questions. The others I don't feel any particular obligation to respond to.


LOL. we have, you know, seen this before. You are not fooling anyone.

"6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your
pearls before swine..."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NosyNed, posted 04-19-2004 10:56 PM NosyNed has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by 1.61803, posted 04-20-2004 11:22 AM redwolf has not yet responded
 Message 80 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2004 11:49 AM redwolf has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2840
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 78 of 121 (101175)
04-20-2004 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by redwolf
04-20-2004 11:16 AM


Re: Have no reply? pity.
Would that be modern swine or pre gravitational change swine?


"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 11:16 AM redwolf has not yet responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 79 of 121 (101176)
04-20-2004 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by redwolf
04-20-2004 11:11 AM


Re: Have no reply? pity.
Herre's yet another piece of the picture which I seem to have overlooked here. The heaviest birds which can take off or land in our present world are around 30 lbs, including albatrosses and buzzards, and the largest flying eagles are around 25 lbs, i.e. the largest berkuts. They get one or two berkuts that size every fifty years or so; any larger than that, and they can't take off or land, and they perish. The Argentinian teratorn, of course, was a 200 lb eagle with a 25' wingspan, yet another thing which can't happen in present gravity

Prove it can't fly.

This is getting repetative: being bigger is not proof of lower gravity. Scaling up smaller creatures is not a valid comparison.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 11:11 AM redwolf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 1:15 PM Dr Jack has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5389
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 80 of 121 (101181)
04-20-2004 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by redwolf
04-20-2004 11:16 AM


Re: Have no reply? pity.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your
pearls before swine..."

You nimrod! What have you presented around here that's "holy," as if I gave a crap about "holy?" And where did you present a "pearl?"

What arrogance!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 11:16 AM redwolf has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Dr Jack, posted 04-20-2004 12:01 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 269 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 81 of 121 (101182)
04-20-2004 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Coragyps
04-20-2004 11:49 AM


Re: Have no reply? pity.
And where did you present a "pearl?"

Oh, come on, this was laugh out loud funny:

http://www.bearfabrique.org/marsmachines/mechjunk.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Coragyps, posted 04-20-2004 11:49 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
redwolf
Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 82 of 121 (101199)
04-20-2004 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Dr Jack
04-20-2004 11:23 AM


Re: Have no reply? pity.
>Prove it can't fly.

The ostrich is living proof that birds that size can't fly. After the change in gravity, the larger birds either died out, or their wings became vestigial, as inthe case of ostriches, moas etc. etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Dr Jack, posted 04-20-2004 11:23 AM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by 1.61803, posted 04-20-2004 1:37 PM redwolf has not yet responded
 Message 99 by Dr Jack, posted 04-21-2004 5:50 AM redwolf has not yet responded

  
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2840
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 83 of 121 (101203)
04-20-2004 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by redwolf
04-20-2004 1:15 PM


Re: Have no reply? pity.
The Ostrich and Moas and Emu birds developed into land dwelling non-flight birds because the niche they exploit is of terrestrial dwelling. Gravity being {different} does not factor in to this equation. By your logic Whales dont walk today because they're legs became vestigial and the development of flippers was due to[different] Gravity and not a aquatic existance. You have not proven or provided evidence of nothing but your vivid imagination.
*edit to add: the word [different]

[This message has been edited by 1.61803, 04-20-2004]


"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 1:15 PM redwolf has not yet responded

  
redwolf
Member (Idle past 3955 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 84 of 121 (101206)
04-20-2004 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by TechnoCore
04-20-2004 11:12 AM


Re: When did it change? how old the rock?
>So in order to scale something up, you need to construct it in a complete different way.

Either that, or do it in a world where gravity is less of a problem. That's the conclusion most of the people studying the problem are coming to at present.

http://www.bearfabrique.org/japanscreens/index.htm


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by TechnoCore, posted 04-20-2004 11:12 AM TechnoCore has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by TechnoCore, posted 04-20-2004 5:47 PM redwolf has responded
 Message 90 by Sylas, posted 04-20-2004 6:10 PM redwolf has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 121 (101226)
04-20-2004 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by redwolf
04-20-2004 11:12 AM


which the saur's neck didn't.

To the contrary, it did have suspension cables - tendons, ligaments, and musculature cantilevering the neck by the tail.

You don't just get to say "nuh-uh!" and expect that to carry any weight. Let's hear some evidence that you couldn't hold a sauropod's neck up by it's tail.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 11:12 AM redwolf has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 04-20-2004 4:58 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 86 of 121 (101291)
04-20-2004 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by redwolf
04-20-2004 11:11 AM


Time to put this idea to bed
So you want to use flying for the proof. Good.

Great Research Advances: Past and Present

Quetzalcoatlus! The largest flying creature of all time

By 1975, studies of the specimen by Lawson and his supervisor, Wann Langston, Jr. Had determined that the animal, a 65 million year old pterodactyl from the Age of Dinosaurs, had a wing spread of about 40 feet, greater than a 4-place Cessna airplane or an F-18 fighter. It was about twice as large as the biggest pterodactyl known up to that time. With the discovery of additional, though smaller, fossilized skeletal remains in the Big Bend in 1973, it was possible to reconstruct the entire skeleton of the pterodactyl which Lawson named Quetzalcoatlus northopi. Based upon what had been learned from these discoveries, the world-renowned aeronautical engineer, Paul MacCready, with the assistance of Professor Langston created a large flying replica of Quetzalcoatlus which performed over the California desert for the Smithsonian Museum's IMAX film "on the Wing" in 1985. Lawson's discovery attracted world-wide attention, being reported in newspapers and magazines and on TV from New York to Tokyo and Canada to Argentina. "On the Wing" was shown around the world. ABC 20-20, the news program, produced a 20 minute segment on MacCready's work, and Sir David Attenborough traveled to Texas to film segments for his BBC series "Lost Worlds - Vanished Lives." Quetzalcoatlus continues to attract attention within scientific circles and the press because of the exciting questions it raises about how the long extinct pterodactyls flew, how big a flying creature can be, and why such successful animals went extinct along with the dinosaurs sixty-five million years ago.

Model of a 65 million year old specimen that flies in today's gravity. If there was a change in gravity as Ted Holden and his gullible cohorts contend, then the model should not be able to get off the ground.

{added by edit: picture of the replica pterodactyl flying:

nice, eh?}

QED. no significant change in gravity.

Thank you.

Enjoy.

[This message has been edited by RAZD, 04-20-2004]


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 11:11 AM redwolf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 9:01 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19869
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 87 of 121 (101298)
04-20-2004 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
04-20-2004 2:39 PM


Not only that, but if you were going to look at a long neck and ask what it would need for extra support, you would look for spines on the top to seperate the compressive load on the vertebrae from the tensile load on the muscles and tendons. If it formed a notch to keep a tendon in place at the top of the spines, so much the better.

You see this structure on a lot of horizontal orientation necks, but big time on ... sauropods:

Notice how the neck vertebrae (d) is elongated in a verticle direction with a notch for an elastin ligamen to provide extra support for the neck. Definitely a cable system.

One would also expect (from evolution) that such a ligement would be just enough additional support to allow the muscles to do their job but retain all the flexibility and moveability availble with the muscles.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 04-20-2004 2:39 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 121 (101314)
04-20-2004 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by redwolf
04-20-2004 1:45 PM


Re: When did it change? how old the rock?

Either that, or do it in a world where gravity is less of a problem. That's the conclusion most of the people studying the problem are coming to at present.

True. But my post was adressing your claim that a larger human would be stronger, which I showed you was not the case.

You don't seem to realise that no matter how little you change one of the natural constants, (such as gravity) it will have huge and dire consequenses for every living beeing.
Here are some problems you get with less gravity:
The temperature inside the core of the sun never reaches high enough for fusion of hydrogen. (The sun never lits).
If there is enough gravity for fusion reactions, the size of the sun would be considerable larger. Gravity won't be able to counter the pressure from the fusion-reactions in the core of the sun.
Also the solar-wind could rip earth's atmosphere away, just like it has done on mars. Since earth's weak gravity won't be able to hold its gases.
There will be almost no tidal-waves due to earth-moon attraction is so weak. Formation of every natural force will work differently. You can see this in soldified molten rocks and sediments. They would not be layered as predicted and observed now. The oceans would have no or little oxygen in the depths, (Less mixing of cold and warm water)Leads to Asphyxation of fish and plants. Bla bla bla i can go on forever. But that seems a bit of a waste of my precious time.
My preeeeecious! errr.

Mind the spelling, im tired.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 1:45 PM redwolf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 9:07 PM TechnoCore has responded

  
Wertbag
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 121 (101315)
04-20-2004 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by redwolf
04-19-2004 12:07 PM


"There are something like 50,000 known viruses out there in the windows world, and this in my view has something to do with all the little companies and products which msoft has swallowed up and spat out the bones thereof over the years; I would GUESS that a lot of the people who used to work at those companies now sit around writing windows viruses.

There are something like five or ten known viruses in the linux world and they're all targeted at servers, the chance of me ever getting one of them is basically zero."

By the latest McAfee anti-virus listing there are just under 90,000 viruses for Windows based PCs. They are not being written by ex-employees, the majority are written by young guys with programming skills (eg teenagers and Uni students), the same group of people who are into cracking games, hacking systems and generally testing themselves to see how far they can get.
Linux is not a more secure system, its simply a less popular system and is therefore less targetted. Virus writers want it to spread and be famous, to do that you aim for the biggest group you can, hence all new viruses are being aimed towards Windows XP machines, with many of the new viruses not affecting older Windows versions like 95, 98 and Me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by redwolf, posted 04-19-2004 12:07 PM redwolf has not yet responded

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 3424 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 90 of 121 (101327)
04-20-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by redwolf
04-20-2004 1:45 PM


Re: When did it change? how old the rock?
redwolf writes:

Either that, or do it in a world where gravity is less of a problem. That's the conclusion most of the people studying the problem are coming to at present.

http://www.bearfabrique.org/japanscreens/index.htm

It is one thing to propose ...interesting... new ideas to challenge existing paradigms.

But to dream up an argument from authority; suggesting that "most of the people studying this problem" are coming to a conclusion that gravity used to be reduced in effect is just being dishonest.

The TV program you are citing here is not an indication of anything much. It is produced by Office Kei, which is apparently a small company in Japan which exists in order to give production assistance to others who want to produce a TV program. They don't just produce things off their own bat; someone uses them to help produce the program. Who would that be, in this instance? My guess is Ted Holden himself, perhaps with financial support from others in the neo-catastrophist community. Certainly I have never seen anyone else actually advocating this notion. Some neo-catastrophists certainly like to applaud anyone who takes on conventional science in some way, but they are understandably leery of actually making a public statement to the effect that they are coming around to share Ted's gravity nonsense.

Good luck to him; it's fine to try and present ideas in this way.

But if you are going to say that reduced gravity is a conclusion of "most people" working on this problem, you need to name someone. Ted Holden I know about already. He is very brash, but not particularly competent with the necessary physics. Is there anyone actually working on the dinosaur dynamics who thinks Ted has a ghost of a case?

Cheers -- Sylas


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 1:45 PM redwolf has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 8:52 PM Sylas has not yet responded
 Message 94 by redwolf, posted 04-20-2004 9:12 PM Sylas has not yet responded

  
Prev1
...
45
6
789Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019