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Author Topic:   Which religion's creation story should be taught?
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2812 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 121 of 331 (567595)
07-01-2010 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by bluescat48
06-25-2010 8:59 AM


Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
Dear bluescat48,

Thanks for joining our discussion; hope you enjoy our dialogue.

First, let me say that I am not an Attorney nor am I a paralegal.

bluescat48 writes:

…Which means that no one can do this. The free exercise of religion A in no way can interfere with the free exercise of religion B. That is the Gist of the statement freedom of religion is also freedom from religion.

The banning of religious symbols is just that, freedom of religion.

This is the ‘interpretation’ that the Supreme Court has used for the last thirty or so years; however, there are a few problems I see with this, so called, ‘interpretation’:

First of all is the Constitutions language. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech”. (Fist Amendment)

If this phraseology was intended to keep ‘religion’ out of government and ‘religious’ expression off of government property then why: “On July 21, 1789, on the same day that it approved the Establishment Clause concerning religion,” did “the First Congress of the United States” also pass “the Northwest Ordinance, providing for a territorial government for lands northwest of the Ohio River, which declared: ‘Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.’(Emphases added)

Why: “On September 25, 1789,” did “the First Congress unanimously approved a resolution calling on President George Washington to proclaim a National Day of Thanksgiving for the people of the United States by declaring, ‘a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a constitution of government for their safety and happiness.(Emphases added)

Even “On April 28, 1952, in the decision of the Supreme Court of the United States in Zorach v. Clauson, 343 U.S. 306 (1952), in which school children were allowed to be excused from public schools for religious observances and education, Justice William O. Douglas, in writing for the Court stated: ‘The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of Church and State.

Rather, it studiously defines the manner, the specific ways, in which there shall be no concern or union or dependency one on the other. That is the common sense of the matter.

Otherwise the State and religion would be aliens to each other—hostile, suspicious, and even unfriendly. Churches could not be required to pay even property taxes. Municipalities would not be permitted to render police or fire protection to religious groups.

Policemen who helped parishioners into their places of worship would violate the Constitution. Prayers in our legislative halls; the appeals to the Almighty in the messages of the Chief Executive; the proclamations making Thanksgiving Day a holiday; “so help me God” in our courtroom oaths—these and all other references to the Almighty that run through our laws, our public rituals, our ceremonies would be flouting the First Amendment.

A fastidious atheist or agnostic could even object to the supplication with which the Court opens each session: “God save the United States and this Honorable Court.(Emphases added)

These are just a small sampling of the mountain of evidence that show that the “Separation of Church and state” idea is not what the framers of the Constitution intended for the ‘First Amendment’ or the Constitution as a whole.

Their intension was to keep the government from interfering with “the free exercise” of ‘religious expression’ not to insulate the government and thus the public from religious ideas and ideals.

Also, as Justice William O. Douglas pointed out, the idea of making ‘Government’ and ‘religious expression’ mutually excusive is, in itself, a ridicules concept.

I’ll close with this question: How does a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house “prohibit the free exercise” of an atheist’s religion?; Or a Muslim?; Or Buddhist?

God bless us, everyone,
JRTjr

P.S. As a mater of fact; I do not recall any other religious groups (out side of Atheist’s ) trying to get all Christian references removed from government domains (Here in the United States ).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by bluescat48, posted 06-25-2010 8:59 AM bluescat48 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2010 9:24 PM JRTjr has responded
 Message 123 by bluescat48, posted 07-01-2010 9:25 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply
 Message 124 by hooah212002, posted 07-01-2010 9:26 PM JRTjr has responded
 Message 126 by dwise1, posted 07-01-2010 9:49 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16111
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 122 of 331 (567600)
07-01-2010 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 8:57 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
I’ll close with this question: How does a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house “prohibit the free exercise” of an atheist’s religion?; Or a Muslim?; Or Buddhist?

it doesn't. It violates the establishment clause. Duh.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by JRTjr, posted 07-01-2010 8:57 PM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by JRTjr, posted 08-08-2010 4:26 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2696 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 123 of 331 (567601)
07-01-2010 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 8:57 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
I’ll close with this question: How does a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house “prohibit the free exercise” of an atheist’s religion?; Or a Muslim?; Or Buddhist?

A Bible doesn't whereas the "10 Commandments" would, as would a menorah, a creche. The Bible wouldn't , nor would a Koran or the Rig Veda or the Illiad. These are not religious symbols but reference works. As for "“God save the United States and this Honorable Court,”
This does not state any god in particular. If it stated Yahveh or Allah or Zeus, etc. I would complain. The fact that they acknowledge "god" is their right. as long as they are not specific that "god"is any particular religious faith's "god."


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by JRTjr, posted 07-01-2010 8:57 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3188
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 124 of 331 (567602)
07-01-2010 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 8:57 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
I’ll close with this question: How does a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house “prohibit the free exercise” of an atheist’s religion?; Or a Muslim?; Or Buddhist?

Please tell me, in detail, what religion an atheist would ascribe to?


"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by JRTjr, posted 07-01-2010 8:57 PM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by JRTjr, posted 08-10-2010 4:15 PM hooah212002 has responded

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2812 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 125 of 331 (567603)
07-01-2010 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Coragyps
06-25-2010 9:03 AM


Dear Coragyps,

Thank you also for joining our discussion; hope you to enjoy our dialogue.

Coragyps writes:

Yes, I've noticed how often our Constitution mentions gods.......once. In the phrase "Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth." That's some real "weaving," all right....

Well thank you for noticing; however if you dig a little deeper – and read more of our founding documents- I’m sure you’ll find more direct and in-direct reference to God, His providence, the Bible, and commonalities between our founding documents and principles found in the Bible.

You might start off with the ‘Preamble’.

God bless us, everyone,
JRTjr


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Coragyps, posted 06-25-2010 9:03 AM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 4163
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 126 of 331 (567605)
07-01-2010 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 8:57 PM


Re: Banning religious symbols is freedom of religion?
First, let me thank you oh so much for making so much of your message virtually unreadable. May everyone else also show you the same consideration in all things.

I’ll close with this question: How does a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house “prohibit the free exercise” of an atheist’s religion?; Or a Muslim?; Or Buddhist?

As already pointed out, the problem would be one of establishment. But let me ask you this: Which Bible is that? Jewish? Protestant? Catholic? Because all three are different from each other. One of the major problems that Catholic parents had with the Christian instruction their children were getting in the public schools was that it was all Protestant, including Protestant prayers and reading from a Protestant Bible.

Similarly, when the Ten Commandments gets posted, whose version has been chosen by the government? Again, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants each have different versions of the Ten Commandments. Which one does the government chose to the exclusion of the other two?

As long as it's your own religion that's being established, you can't see what difference it could possibly make to others, but those of the disenfranchised religions can tell you from bitter experience that it does make a helluva lot of difference.

P.S. As a mater of fact; I do not recall any other religious groups (out side of Atheist’s ) trying to get all Christian references removed from government domains (Here in the United States ).

In the 19th century, it was the Catholics who were fighting to get religious instruction taken out of the public schools, because they did not want their children to be taught that heretical Protestantism. Failing in that, they formed their own parochial school system, for which the Protestants made sure to bar any tax money (ironically, those same barriers are now barring the Protestants from getting tax money for their own sectarian schools). In the 1940's, the case that finally got religious instruction taken out of the public schools was filed by Jewish parents; considering the centuries of rabid anti-Semitism committed and propagated by Christians, would think that they would object to that hated religion being stuffed down their kids' throats? No less the same prospect for Muslims, who still remember the Crusades.


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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3188
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 127 of 331 (567615)
07-01-2010 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 9:37 PM


I take it you do not know how to read.....

Preamble to the Constitution writes:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

God? Nope.

Bible? Nope again.

Jeebus? Nosirree.

Christianity???? Negative.

Religion?????????? Nada.

FSM Bless YOU, Jr.


"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by JRTjr, posted 07-01-2010 9:37 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2812 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 128 of 331 (567622)
07-01-2010 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by purpledawn
06-25-2010 9:31 AM


Dear Purpledawn,

Thank you as well for joining our discussion; hope you too enjoy our dialogue.

The answers to most of your posting are in my responses to “Bluescat48” and “Coragyps”. So, I hope you will read them and give us your take on what is said.

Purpledawn writes:

What does the exercise of the Christian religion actually entail?

I assume here that you’re asking this as it relates to the founding of the United States of America, and the founding documents that are at the center of this discussion.

In that respect; the exercising of the Christian faith requires the truth be told (Exodus 19: 5, 23: 1-2) of the events of our past.

Since the United States of America was founded by Christians so that Christians could follow the dictates of their faith (religion) without fear of reprisal from non-Christians (both in government and in the privet sector) our monuments and historical documents are fraught with references to our faith and our God. To tear down these references; and hide there significance is to partake in a lie.

God bless us, everyone,
JRTjr


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 131 by jar, posted 07-02-2010 9:56 AM JRTjr has responded
 Message 132 by Theodoric, posted 07-02-2010 9:58 AM JRTjr has responded
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1964 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 129 of 331 (567673)
07-02-2010 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 11:51 PM


Exercise of Religion
quote:
I assume here that you’re asking this as it relates to the founding of the United States of America, and the founding documents that are at the center of this discussion.

In that respect; the exercising of the Christian faith requires the truth be told (Exodus 19: 5, 23: 1-2) of the events of our past.


Actually, I wanted to know what the exercise of the Christian religion actually entails?

Exercising your religion means the performance of your religion.

You say that it requires the truth to be told about the history of Christian Religion. The verses you provided do not support that; but telling the truth falls under freedom of speech. I wouldn't call it performing the Christian religion.

quote:
I’ll close with this question: How does a Bible, sitting in a display case, in front of a court house “prohibit the free exercise” of an atheist’s religion?; Or a Muslim?; Or Buddhist?
A Bible sitting in a display case is not an exercise of the Christian Religion. So removing the Bible does not prevent a Christian from performing their religion.

A court house should be neutral zone. The individuals inside the building are not hindered from worshiping or not worshiping as they please or speaking of their religion or lack of religion.

So what does the exercise of the Christian religion actually entail?

quote:
Since the United States of America was founded by Christians so that Christians could follow the dictates of their faith (religion) without fear of reprisal from non-Christians (both in government and in the privet sector) our monuments and historical documents are fraught with references to our faith and our God. To tear down these references; and hide there significance is to partake in a lie.
Not really. In the colonial times the church fathers and the government were the threat, not non-Christians. Colonist were here over 150 years before the constitution was ratified.

Liberating the founders
Mr. Waldman: Most people tend to think of, well the founding fathers were aware of persecution in Europe and they wanted to avoid official religions in Europe. And that's partially true, but almost all of the colonies had official or semiofficial religions. And in fact, you could look at the first 150 years of colonial history as one experiment after another of people trying to have state-supported religion. In New England, it was the congregational churches, the Puritans, and in the Southern states, it was the Church of England. In Pennsylvania, it was Quakers. And the one thing that all of these experiments had in common is they all failed. There's really a lot that is quite painful. For instance, the treatment of Quakers in early American history was not just a case of harassment or persecution, it was illegal to be a Quaker. And Quakers were thrown in jail and in fact executed. There's, you know, a case of a woman named Mary Dyer, who I feel like every school child ought to know the story of Mary Dyer.

The "Bill of Rights" was a campaign promise.

Mr. Waldman: And he had to go and court them. And the thing that they were most fearful of was that the Constitution, this was before the Bill of Rights, did not adequately guarantee religious freedom. And at that point, Madison actually didn't really agree. He thought it was OK the way it was. He was not an early supporter of the Bill of Rights, ironically. But they said, 'Unh-unh, come on. We know you've been with us in the past but this is really important to have religious freedom.' And Madison made what was probably the most important "read my lips" campaign pledge in American history. He said to the Evangelical leaders in his district that, 'if you elect me, the first thing I will do is put forward a Bill of Rights and it will have religious freedom as one of its core components.' And they agreed and they got him elected and he kept his promise.

Religious freedom wasn't a priority of the government.

Campaign for a Bill of Rights
When the Federal Convention met in 1787, only a handful of delegates expressed any interest in including a comprehensive list of rights in the new constitution of national government they were drafting. On 12 September 1787, five days before the convention was to adjourn, two of the three delegates still present raised the issue of including a bill of rights in the Constitution; these delegates indicated that they would refuse to sign the completed Constitution without such inclusion. George Mason, one of the two, apparently thought that the convention could simply imitate the influential Virginia Declaration of Rights that he had drafted in 1776. The convention dismissed the idea after perfunctory debate.

The United States continues to evolve. We are a country free to worship the god of our choice or free not to worship any god. Keeping public grounds free of religious paraphernalia maintains the balance and doesn't impact anyone's exercise of their religion.

Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given.


Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motion—for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in “The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by JRTjr, posted 07-01-2010 11:51 PM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by JRTjr, posted 08-10-2010 10:28 PM purpledawn has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5494
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 130 of 331 (567691)
07-02-2010 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 11:51 PM


Since the United States of America was founded by Christians....

Thomas Jefferson believed that Jesus was a man, only a man, with no divine nature attached. Jefferson once wrote "Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."

And also "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter."

Does he still count as a Christian? I know David Barton tries to claim him. Of course, Barton makes up fictional quotes, too.


"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

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jar
Member
Posts: 32505
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 131 of 331 (567706)
07-02-2010 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 11:51 PM


Since the United States of America was founded by Christians so that Christians could follow the dictates of their faith (religion) without fear of reprisal from non-Christians (both in government and in the privet sector) our monuments and historical documents are fraught with references to our faith and our God.

That is not quite true. It would be closer to the truth to say that some of the colonies were founded so that certain Christian Sects could follow the dictates of their faith (religion) without fear of reprisal from other Christian sects and exclude the other Christian sects from power and influence.

However that is irrelevant to the founding of the United States. The United States was most definitely NOT founded for religious reasons, certainly not Christian reasons. The United States was founded to resolve economic, political, commercial and territorial disputes.

Religion DID play a part, but it was a negative influence. The fear of one or more of the many different Christian sects (particularly the Puritan and Fundamentalist sects of New England) gaining power and influence was a major stumbling block to be resolved before any of the colonies would consider uniting.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 132 of 331 (567707)
07-02-2010 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 11:51 PM


WTF??
Since the United States of America was founded by Christians so that Christians could follow the dictates of their faith (religion) without fear of reprisal from non-Christians (both in government and in the privet sector)

Please show me where this is evidenced? Just one little source please.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by JRTjr, posted 07-01-2010 11:51 PM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 133 of 331 (567723)
07-02-2010 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
07-02-2010 9:56 AM


...
WTF?

Welcome back Jar!

Although, you do not know me, I always emjoyed reading your posts here.


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 Message 131 by jar, posted 07-02-2010 9:56 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 930 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 134 of 331 (567762)
07-02-2010 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Coragyps
07-02-2010 8:40 AM


Coragyps writes:

Does he still count as a Christian? I know David Barton tries to claim him. Of course, Barton makes up fictional quotes, too.

As a Christian (a fundy no less), and far be it from me to judge the heart of an individual man, but from what I've read and know of Jefferson I would say, no, he was not a Christian, nor was America founded as a "Christian" nation, although Christian teachings, the Bible, and principles were the majority rule at the time (i.e. most accepted these facts at the time, thus they controlled the laws, norms, customs, ect).

Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.

Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.


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dwise1
Member
Posts: 4163
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 135 of 331 (567805)
07-02-2010 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by JRTjr
07-01-2010 11:51 PM


My emphasis:
JRTjr writes:

Since the United States of America was founded by Christians so that Christians could follow the dictates of their faith (religion) without fear of reprisal from non-Christians (both in government and in the privet sector) our monuments and historical documents are fraught with references to our faith and our God.

Really??? Wow! We've never been told that! All this time, we were taught that a number of colonies were founded by religious sects seeking to escape religious persecution back home by the prevailing Christian majority and authorities, such as The Church of England. And that shortly after those colonies had been founded, those Christian colonies proceeded to engage in religious persecution against other Christians (eg, Puritan persecution of Quakers). And that long after the founding of those colonies, groups and individuals continued to flee to the American colonies in order to escape religious persecution perpetrated by -- yet again -- by the prevailing Christian majority and authorities; eg, scientist and Unitarian minister Joseph Priestly having to flee England to escape Christian mobs and refugees from the Spanish Inquisition, a Christian campaign of religious persecution that lasted three and a half centuries -- James Madison specifically referred to the Spanish Inquisition as an example of religious persecution that we'd be in danger of creating ourselves should we institute religious establishment here. And even that non-Christians came here to escape religious persecution; eg, European Jews fleeing persecution and pogroms committed by Christians.

And now you are telling us that it was non-Christians who had been committing all that persecution. Do please enlighten us: who were those non-Christians against whom the Founding Fathers were protecting us? What other religion was even in Europe at the time, let alone in any position of power from which to persecute Christian groups? Sure, there were the Jews, but until the 19th century they were excluded from society and subject to repeated persecution themselves, by Christians no less.

Specific examples, please.


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