Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 76 (9011 total)
61 online now:
kjsimons, PaulK (2 members, 59 visitors)
Newest Member: Burrawang
Upcoming Birthdays: Coragyps
Post Volume: Total: 881,652 Year: 13,400/23,288 Month: 330/795 Week: 31/95 Day: 0/12 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does Evolution Require Spreading The Word?
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 96 of 135 (339160)
08-11-2006 9:21 AM


It looks like it is needed in the US
In a recent study, the US lags behind the rest of the developed world in understanding and accepting both genetics and evolution. Some indicators show the US falling even further behind all developed countries except Turkey. One key point of difference was the nature of Fundamentalist religions in the US (predominitely Christian fundamentalists) and in Turkey (predominitely Muslim fundamentalists).

While American fundamentalists tend to interpret the Bible literally and to view Genesis as a true and accurate account of creation, mainstream Protestants in both the United States and Europe instead treat Genesis as metaphorical, the researchers say.

AbE:

One of the funnier quotes in the article is from Bruce Chapman of the misnamed Discovery Institute (should be called the Coverup Institute) and clearly illustrates just how totally bankrupt and useless both Creationism and ID are and how willing the supporters are to grab at anything that can posibly be twisted so that it apears to support ID or Biblical Creationism.

"A better explanation for the high percentage of doubters of Darwinism in America may be that this country's citizens are famously independent and are not given to being rolled by an ideological elite in any field," Chapman said. "In particular, the growing doubts about Darwinism undoubtedly reflect growing doubts among scientists about Darwinian theory. Over 640 have now signed a public dissent and the number keeps growing."

What an absolutely classic example of just how silly the ID and Biblical Creationism really is cannot be be faked. Only someone like Bruce Chapman could even imagine that is support.

Contrast their list of 640 scientists with the over 10,000 US Christian Clergy who signed the Clergy Letter supporting teaching the Theory of Evolution and decrying teaching of ID or Biblical Creationism.

Biblical Creationism is not simply bad science, it is worse theology.

Edited by jar, : add comment

Edited by jar, : less more


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 11:18 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 98 of 135 (339181)
08-11-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 11:18 AM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
What does it matter what some uneducated clergy are willing to concede in the face of intense public pressure from academia, the media, and the public at large - especially in the face of declining church attendance.

Uneducated clergy? I suppose you do have something to back that up? Do you have ANY idea of how in the churches listed in the signers of the Clergy Project open letter one becomes a member of the clergy?

For Reference

Public pressure? Might it not also be that the weight of evidence is so enormous that to even consider either ID or Biblical Creationism is simply laughable?

Instead of ridiculing the growing number of skeptical scientists (PhDs, I might add) who are brave enough to voice their doubt of the current theories, we might be more willing hold off on our ridicule long enough to consider if there might be someting there...

Held off. Looked at the evidence. ID and Biblical Creationism have been examined and found wanting.

Mene Mene Tekle Upharsin.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 11:18 AM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 12:00 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 100 of 135 (339187)
08-11-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 12:00 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
Again you seem to be misunderstanding the example.

The point is that the clergy signing the letter condemn Biblical Creationism and ID on not just scientific issues but also because it is Bad Theology.

Like so many of us, they are fully capable of examining the evidence for evolution and the total lack of evidence for ID as well as the absolute refutation of Biblical Creationism.

Biblical Creationism is totally refuted and backrupt. The simple fact that we see stars is enough to totally discount any Young Earth scenario. As I said, ID and Biblical Creationism are NOT JUST bad science, they are worse theology.

Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 12:00 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 12:17 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 102 of 135 (339192)
08-11-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 12:17 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
OK - So we have 640 scientists who doubt evolution; but they are ignored because tens of thousands of scientists feel otherwise;

We have 10,000 clergy who have a specific theology about Life Origins; but they are heralded as authoritative despite the counter-position held by 350,000 thousand clergy..

See the hypocrisy?

Nope.

Let me try one more time.

The point of the comparision is that the Discovery Institute touting 640 scientists as evidence of the validity of ID or Biblical Creationism is absurd. Showing that lists of clergy oppose the teaching of ID or Biblical Creationism simply points out that lists can be gathered on either side.

The reason we need to spread the word about what the Theory of Evolution actually says is that there may still be hundreds of thousands of clergy who simply are ignorant of what it says and what it means theologically.

The issues is not a vote. The issue is that anyone who supports either Biblical Creationism or ID is simply wrong. We need to help them, teach them both the science that leads inevitably to an acceptance of an old universe and evolution, as well as the theological implications. We need to help these people learn that what the evidence shows is NOT a threat to a belief in GOD or Christianity.

The issue is not number of supporters, but rather one of conclusions based on evidence.

Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 12:17 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 1:10 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 104 of 135 (339204)
08-11-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 1:10 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
No, I am using the Clergy list to show that voting on reality is nothing but a waste of time and effort.

What is means theologically? Now science is going to instruct religion? The ToE is going to tell these 'ignorant' clergy what the ToE means THEOLOGICALLY? How presumptuous...

No, hopefully though the ignorant clergy can learn from reality. Hopefully the ignorant clergy can also learn from the educated minority of other clergy theologically.

ID and Biblical Creationism are not just bad science, they are bad theology.

Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 1:10 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 1:36 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 107 of 135 (339214)
08-11-2006 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 1:36 PM


Re: It looks like it is needed in the US
Sorry, but YOU were the one who characterized clergy that support ID or Biblical Creationism as ignorant and I was simply using YOUR terms. I think that it is apt though. Yes, to again quote you, "So by definition, clergy who accept ToE are "educated" while those who don't are 'ignorant'??!!"


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 1:36 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 2:21 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 109 of 135 (339241)
08-11-2006 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 2:21 PM


Why we need to spread the word.
Ignorance is not shameful. Wilfull ignorance may well be.

The point I was trying to make is that reality is not something you take a vote on.

If Christian Clergy are promoting Biblical Creationism they are either ignorant, mistaken, deluded or dishonest. The former two can be sovd through education, the later two are unlikely to be resolved.

The fact of Evolution, of an Old Universe, of there never being a world-wide flood needs to be taught to those who do not understand. It is also, IMHO, a good idea to show them that they can retain their belief in GOD and particularly Christianity at the same time.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 2:21 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 2:46 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 111 of 135 (339264)
08-11-2006 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 2:46 PM


Re: Why we need to spread the word.
Well, as an 'ignorant' Christian I consider myself to be as educated both theologically and scientifically as most people...and there is no logical discrepancy between my belief in God and my skepticism of ToE, or my belief in a world-wide flood...

In the US I would say that is probably an accurate if sad assessment.

On the other hand, you may wish to consider how well your viewpoint harmonizes with God's when we have his own Word that speaks against ToE...

Yet we have a better source, one that GOD left us directly, the very Universe we live in, that must be balanced against some book written by men and meant to be a guide on theology and not a science text.

When it comes to Biblical Creationism and ID the evidence is in, the answer sure:

Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 2:46 PM mjfloresta has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 3:14 PM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32965
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 113 of 135 (339273)
08-11-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by mjfloresta
08-11-2006 3:14 PM


Re: Why we need to spread the word.
You talk about the direct evidence God has left us (science), yet you ignore the direct communication he has left us (his word)..

No, I accept his word. It is called reality. It's called the universe. It is called fossils and mountains and valleys and old worn rocks and the stars and Evolution.

You say you trust the bible to be an accurate guide to theology yet you doubt its accuracy...

I don't doubt it when it comes to theology, but it is not a great source for either science or history.

It's like people saying that Jesus was a good man but not God...that's impossible; he's either God - as he said he was, or he was a liar, and a pretender, claiming to be the deity of the universe when he was not...

Well frankly, even if Jesus was but a tale told round the campfire, the message would still be valid.

Similarly, when it comes to God's testimony about himself and his deeds, you can either believe him at his word - or not; But don't claim to accept his word and then not believe anything he says...

LOL

When you find something GOD wrote, you let me know.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by mjfloresta, posted 08-11-2006 3:14 PM mjfloresta has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020