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Author Topic:   dinosaur and human co-existence
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Message 12 of 271 (556492)
04-20-2010 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by techristian
04-20-2010 12:55 AM

here abide dragons
What about DRAGONS? Where did they come from?

Indonesia. As indicated clearly on most early nautical maps. They and dinosaurs are both diapsids, but there's really not that much resemblance. Dinosaurs are birds, dragons are dragons.

Monitor lizards are related to Lepidsauria which emerged from Diapsida, about 250 million years ago at the end of the Paleozoic era. About 100 million years ago, during the Cretaceous era, a species related to contemporary varanids appear in the fossil records of central Asia. Marine lizards from this species went extinct, along with dinosaurs, about 65 million years ago. During the Eocene, 50 million years ago, land monitors spread throughout Europe and South Asia.


They are, extremely good at guarding treasure.

Large prey usually will be struck at the ankles causing them to fall to the ground where they will be finished off by the monitor's powerful jaws. Their deadly saliva causes serious infections with no known cure. Even if the prey manages to escape the initial strike, they inevitably will die from an infection or bleed to death . These large monitors are rather fast for their size, 11 m.p.h., but only for short distances. Adult dragons have voracious appetites and can eat up to 80% of their empty body weight (Diamond 1992). They will eat everything from the bones to the hooves. Yet a 100 pound adult can survive on only 30 pounds of meat a month when it becomes necessary (Diamond, 1992).

Also popular for virgin sacrifices.

Regardless of our inability to determine the proper gender, Komodo dragons know who is who and what is what. They tend to mate between May and August. Before mating occurs the dominant males battle to determine who will be their mate. They do not fight to the death, but blood is usually drawn. Their tails play an integral part during battle as they get in upright positions and wrestle (Ciofi, 1999). The winner of the wrestling match gets to choose his mate.

Courtship begins with the male flicking his tongue on the female's nose and then over her body. The male must expose a pair of hemipenes from his cloaca before mating can be accomplished. Once this has happened he then climbs on the back of his mate and inserts one of the two hemipenes into the female's cloaca (Ciofi, 1999).

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Member (Idle past 2960 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005

Message 15 of 271 (559235)
05-07-2010 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Peg
05-07-2010 7:30 PM

no bones about it
arnt these all a type of 'dinosaur'.... literally meaning lizards?

No, the word dinosaur, "thunder lizard", turns out to be a misnomer. Lizards are reptiles, dragons, crocodiles and alligators are reptiles, snakes are also reptiles. Dinosaurs are not in fact reptiles. If you wanted to group them into one of our modern classifications, birds are in the direction you want to look. Different body structure, different apparent metabolism. The dodo would be a nice modern dinosaur, if they weren't extinct themselves. Those awesome birds like ostriches and emus in Catholic Scientist's Theropods and Birds showing a change in kinds are the best match for "modern dinosaurs" if you like.

What Coyote is really asking here is, if man and ancient real undeniable dinosaurs co-existed, how come we can't find bones of them that are intact and non-fossilized the way we can things like neanderthals and mammoths. I think?

Regardless, my point is that we don't need dinosaurs to explain legends about dragons, we have actual dragons roaming the source locations within history and not yet quite extinct, still happily stealing sheep and biting celebrities and so forth.

Edited by Iblis, : AbE

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Posts: 663
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Message 17 of 271 (559250)
05-07-2010 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 9:22 PM

Re: Dino Serpents
I would have been happy to firmly agree with you on this one when I was 7. But when I was 8 I caught a "chameleon" (green anole) and stuck him on the table where I had my dino-rama set up to interact with his reptile buddies from ancient times. At that time, I became very aware of the fact that unlike alligators or iguanas or whatall, my komodos pictured previously, dinos look nothing like reptiles. Their body structure is profoundly different.

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Posts: 663
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Message 27 of 271 (559273)
05-08-2010 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
05-07-2010 10:52 PM

Worm Turns
Here's the thread you seem to not be linking
Why are there venomous snakes?

profoundly different after the fall

Why are there so many dino fossils if they only existed a short time?

Why did all of them become cursed if only one was the devil?

Why do they exist at all to be fossilized if they were cursed? Did the curse only affect their descendants? Why did the curse on humans affect those humans personally, while living dinosaurs got some sort of pass?

If you could take an alligator balloon; one of those that you can reshape and stretch out and enlarge the hind legs, and blah blah blah

And if I take a chicken and pluck it and paint it green it looks like Godzilla. And if I take a picture of David Copperfield and draw a bunch of hippy hair and stigmata on it I "wouldn't have to do a whole lot to the head and the rest of the body" to pass him off as Jesus. So?

both dinos and reptiles are known as serpents

That's poetic language. They are also called drakes, but that don't make em ducks do it? And most tellingly, they are called worms, which have a long association with apples. But worms certainly aren't reptiles, or dinosaurs, or anything except long digestive systems. Was the tempter a real worm in a real apple? Was the she-monkey going for the protein? No?

How come any crazy stretch is fine if it supports your point, but obvious references are off base if they don't?

* In case anyone has any confusion as to what Genesis 3 is really all about, I covered it quite clearly in Message 59 in Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure..

Here, let me just quote myself (goose, meet gander)

meMeME writes:

It isn't even so much allegory as light euphemism. The archetypal Man and Woman have just had their first experience with the sexual act, the "forbidden fruit" which is the source of adult rights and responsibilities (the knowledge of good and evil.) The first consequence is immediate physical soreness. The "serpent" (male sexual organ), which had stood surprisingly upright, now droops down and its head is bruised from the breaking of the hymen, which also results in the female sexual organ ("heel") being wounded, ie shedding blood.

This is confirmed by the consequences which follow. The Woman will bear a child, which is a painful and unpleasant process. Bringing children into the world and the responsibility that entails affects not only the mother but also the Man, who must work hard for the rest of his life to care for his offspring.

However some tradition they dispers'd
Among the Heathen of thir purchase got,
And Fabl'd how the Serpent, whom they calld
OPHION with EURYNOME, the wide-
Encroaching EVE perhaps, had first the rule
Of high OLYMPUS, thence by SATURN driv'n
And OPS, ere yet DICTAEAN JOVE was born.

-- Milton

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Message 68 of 271 (559438)
05-09-2010 3:49 PM

About Those Footprints
Just as a side note to this important thread, the topic of which is obviously Buzsaw Wishes He Were Faith ...

Those dino-human footprints in Texas turned out to be partly eroded tridactyl tracks. The ones that were real that is, the ones that were fake are fun with mud and cement and so on on by local residents. The Institute for Creation Research concurs on this.


Upon closer investigation, scientists discovered that the smaller footprints running beside the larger dinosaur tracks were also made by dinosaurs, albeit smaller ones. They were three-toed reptile tracks, eroded just enough to coarsely resemble “human” footprints. Besides, those smaller footprints were three feet long, revealing an animal who stood over twenty feet tall, but the ICR retorted that they were Nephilim footprints (the “giants” in the days of Noah, Genesis chapter six).

In addition, many well-defined, fossilized human footprints were sold around that site, but scientists quickly saw that those were fakes. During the 1930s, when the dinosaur tracks were first discovered, a bunch of Glen Rose residents sculpted fake footprints and sold them to tourists.

Six years after publication, John Morris acknowledged this dilemma in the ICR’s January 1986 Impact newsletter called “The Paluxy Mystery.” This is significant because the Institute for Creation Research almost never admits to errors.

AIG includes this boondoggle amongst its helpful list of pitfalls for serious creationists to avoid embarassing themself in.


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Message 76 of 271 (559488)
05-09-2010 11:24 PM

More About Dino
This guy

is a stylized rendering of Apatosaurus, the critter some of grew up calling Brontosaurus. (This, by the way, was the word that actually translates as "thunder lizard", sorry for my earlier misstatement.)

I'm commenting about him because I want to point out that he is absolutely nothing like a snake. He is one of the best non-therapod examples of exactly why dinosaurs are not really even much like what we would consider a reptile.


Its tidal volume (the amount of air moved in or out during a single breath) has been calculated based on the following respiratory systems:

* 904 liters if avian
* 225 liters if mammalian
* 19 liters if reptilian.

On this basis, its respiratory system could not have been reptilian, as its tidal volume would not have been able to replace its dead-space volume. Likewise, the mammalian system would only provide a fraction of new air on each breath. Therefore, it must have had either a system unknown in the modern world or one like birds, i.e. multiple air sacs and a flow-through lung. Furthermore, an avian system would only need a lung volume of about 600 liters compared to a mammalian requirement of 2,950 liters, which would exceed the available space.

These guys may have been cold-blooded; things like T Rex and Raptors almost certainly were not. Once again, not reptiles, not uncursed snakes, not dragons; proto-birds ...

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Posts: 663
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Message 101 of 271 (559646)
05-10-2010 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Buzsaw
05-10-2010 9:46 PM

Re: Real World Evidence Of Curse
The difference is that little is said by evolutionists as to why the whatever catastropy which allegedly wiped out the dinos left the short legged and belly crawling ones surviving and thriving.

Mass extinctions are almost universally measured in terms of size, body mass. K-T killed everything over about 55 pounds. Yes, there were dinosaurs under 55 pounds; we call them "birds" now.


See, if you and your family, can't fit under, a rock or something, it's Revelation 6:16 for you ...

Since there is no evidence that late Maastrichtian nonavian dinosaurs could burrow, swim or dive, they were unable to shelter themselves from the worst parts of any environmental stress that occurred at the K–T boundary. It is possible that small dinosaurs (other than birds) did survive, but they would have been deprived of food as both herbivorous dinosaurs would have found plant material scarce, and carnivores would have quickly found prey to be in short supply.


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Posts: 663
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Message 177 of 271 (560472)
05-15-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Buzsaw
05-15-2010 8:24 AM

Re: Reptiles and Dinosaurs
What you're are requiring of me is like me asking you for evidence of an astroid wiping out the dinos 60 or so million years ago

Which ZenMonkey documented quite effectively in Message 135. The same evidence has been covered in detail in many many other threads, including here The astronomical impact on terrestrial evolution.

Your evidence consists of an unsupported interpretation of the phallic portion of the garden poetry, a stylized oil company logo misdepicting an animal that turned out to be so different from what we had thought at the time that it has since lost its name, two pictures of non-dinosaur reptiles looking reptilian, a bit of whining about the assumption of relative uniformity, and an unsupported interpretation of the memorial portion of the flood poetry.

The Ur flood raised the water level of the Tigris and Euphrates only 15 cubits Buz. That's 10-25 feet. Didn't create any genetic bottlenecks except amongst the royal dynasties of the city-states of Sumer.

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Posts: 663
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Message 219 of 271 (560695)
05-17-2010 12:51 AM

Human Ancestors At K-T
I thought Buzsaw was starting to wear out and it saddened me, this wonderful thread (have y'all read page one? Awesome!) needs to grow and grow. But this recent turn of events, in which our esteemed opponent has incorporated the catastrophic meteor evidence package, subject to apologetics of course, into his own Deluge argument, has kind of inspired me.

So, I wanted to point out that there really were human ancestors alive at the time of the K-T strike(s), and that they really bear some remarkable resemblances to ourselves, considering the tremendous amount of time (or curse, or baramin-corruption, or whatever) that has gone by.

Here are some pictures of what we might have looked at at the time the sky really did fall.


"Flooding there will be. Wooden box must build."


“It must be the head”’ he said at last; “the head above the hood. And, when I am once there, I must not let go.”

Ghost Dance

And his brother's name [was] Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

These are actually small Lemurs, by the way. They just happen to bear the closest resemblance to our common ancestor 65 million years ago. They were much smaller than we are now, though still good with the opposable thumb. But I bet that if we could go back in time, take ten generations or so to train them by Skinner methods (Don't touch that tree! ZAP! Touch this tree! KCHING!) we could plausibly get them to build a nice box.

Their cubit though, half their armspan, would have been tremendously shorter than our own. This is interesting because in Noah's time the ark was large enough to fill with the ancestors of modern livestock, whereas by the time of Moses and the Judges it was small enough to carry around by hand and house in a tent.

Anyone else see any interesting ways to slide some fun with science and the Bible into this thread?

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