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Author Topic:   YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5897 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 44 of 312 (325253)
06-23-2006 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
06-03-2006 11:41 PM


Ecology and Evolution
I’d like to tackle this thread from the angle Adminnwr suggested. Rather than challenging Faith directly on her absurd assertions, I intend to briefly explore how elimination of evolutionary theory would either utterly wreck my science (ecology/conservation biology geared towards protected area management), or reduce it to mere “bug collecting” with little or no practical value.
What I do has been characterized by some as applied science - a definition I find useful for this particular question, so I’ll go with it. Unless Faith or someone else comes up with a better definition of what she terms “workaday science”, I submit that that is precisely what I do. I use the observations and theories of other scientists to address and attempt to solve real world problems on a daily basis. So if the YEC elimination of evolutionary theory has an effect (as Faith asserts it wouldn’t), then it should be manifest in my work. I will use one single example as illustrative of the dangers of allowing the YEC worldview to emasculate science.
One of the most critical problems facing protected area management today is bioinvasion - the introduction of invasive or exotic species into an ecosystem. In fact, bioinvasion has now taken position as the number two reason globally for local population and conceivably species extinction, right after anthropogenic habitat destruction. It has beaten out pollution and over-exploitation for sheer destructiveness. Beyond conservation issues, invasives also have had a significant effect on the agriculture and ranching industries upon which we humans depend. For those who are unfamiliar with the problem, WorldWatch Institute defines bioinvasion as:
quote:
In an increasingly globalized world, plants, animals, and microbes are introduced more and more frequently into regions that had never hosted them. These "invasive" or "exotic" species can be a destabilizing influence in ecosystems that lack the natural enemies needed to check the spread of exotics. Without such checks, exotics can overrun ecosystems, leaving an impoverished and less resilient environment that is more vulnerable to stresses.
Literally millions of dollars are spent annually around the world on attempts to control, reduce, or mitigate the effects of exotics accidentally or deliberately introduced into a region where they are not native. Indeed, during a recent working visit to the Galapagos, I personally witnessed extreme measures being undertaken in the Galapagos National Park on Isabella in an attempt to eliminate feral goats - in this context highly destructive invasives - from the island using helicopters, snipers, sophisticated satellite tracking, etc.
So what does this have to do with evolution? Generally speaking, I can point to three aspects of this problem that, in the absence of evolutionary theory, are intractable: causation, control, and rehabilitation/mitigation.
a. Causation. Although the science of ecology has made great strides in understanding the issue, one salient fact continues to present a very thorny problem: we simply don’t (yet?) know what factors cause an exotic (defined as simply a non-native species) to become invasive. Post facto analysis of individual invasives can in many cases explain the factors that led to that particular organism (plant, animal or microbe) being successful, but in almost every case the factors are different. There is as yet no global, general, theoretical formula that can be used to predict, in advance, whether a given organism will become invasive in a given ecosystem. Many exotics simply fail, many others simply establish a small, discreet population in a corner and never become invasive. Others establish a population - which may persist for years at a very low level - and then for some reason turn into Godzilla literally overnight, rapidly overrunning and destroying the ecosystem it has invaded. In fact, some exotic populations may be utterly benign in one ecosystem, but become ravening monsters in another, very similar ecosystem in another location. In the absence of an identifiable pattern or thread that binds these cases together in the present, research into the issue has fallen back on the evolutionary history of the organisms themselves and how ecosystems evolve over time. Evolutionary concepts such as ecological release, turnover, founder effect, etc - much of them derived from historical (evolutionary) biogeography - have provided much of the framework for research into the causes. This research has proven very promising and fruitful - although not yet solving the problem. In the absence of evolutionary explanations, ecology would be reduced to studying the present natural history of individual invasives (which has been done, and is on-going): an approach that has utterly failed to produce the results needed to understand the global problem.
b. Control. One of the major problems that we face in controlling the spread of invasive species is in understanding the nature of the threat posed by a given exotic in a given ecosystem. Beyond the properties of the invasive itself (which is “merely” natural history - questions that can be answered in the present tense), it is necessary to understand how communities and ecosystems are formed and evolve over time. One of the more useful approaches to the theoretical underpinnings of this question (now subsumed under the discipline of macroecology), is derived from paleoecology and evolutionary biogeography. Studying the broad-scale environmental changes evidenced in the fossil record (paleoecology), and those examples of ecological turnover or community change we can trace in the fossil and sub-fossil record (evolutionary biogeography), has given us tremendous insight into the long-term patterns of ecosystem change. Understanding the long-term trends as a framework has allowed us to make predictions about short-term trends and effects. This in turn has helped us develop tentative hypotheses that allow us to make decisions such as whether or not to introduce another exotic into an ecosystem to control an existing exotic.
c. Mitigation/rehabilitation. As with control, rebuilding a shattered ecosystem destroyed by bioinvasion requires reliance on historical (evolutionary) and macroecological concepts. One of the aspects of one of my current projects is remediation and re-introduction of species into a habitat where they have been eliminated (by anthropogenic effects, not bioinvasion). Before even contemplating such a project, it is necessary to understand the evolution of populations, community relationships, and the ecosystem as a whole. Evolutionary theory provides the needed framework for undertaking such remediation. Without it, I would be operating blind: unable to tell except by trial and error the secondary and tertiary effects of a reintroduction. I wouldn’t even be able to determine which species to introduce in what order.
In short, this one single aspect of my work would be impossible without the framework provided by evolutionary theory. A similar case could be made for many other aspects of what I do on a daily basis. I have realtime problems that need to be addressed. Without evolution, I couldn’t even rationally formulate the questions.
If anyone would like specific examples of bioinvasion and its effects on human agriculture, epizootic disease effects on human health, or other aspects of this issue, let me know. For others interested in a non-technical discussion of bioinvasion, I can’t recommend more highly Chris Bright’s popsci book, Life Out of Bounds: Bioinvasion in a Borderless World. It is highly readable, and accessible to complete laymen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 06-03-2006 11:41 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 11:47 AM Quetzal has replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5897 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 59 of 312 (325330)
06-23-2006 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Faith
06-23-2006 11:47 AM


Re: Ecology and Evolution
Nice hand wave. You're kidding, right? Did you in fact read the post? Here, try again:
In the absence of an identifiable pattern or thread that binds these cases together in the present, research into the issue has fallen back on the evolutionary history of the organisms themselves and how ecosystems evolve over time. Evolutionary concepts such as ecological release, turnover, founder effect, etc - much of them derived from historical (evolutionary) biogeography - have provided much of the framework for research into the causes.
In other words, without evolution, we're stuck with dealing with invasives in isolation, on a case by case basis, with absolutely no framework to understand the potential threats. Without the theoretical underpinnings provided by, say, Whittaker's seminal Island Biogeography (because even though I'm dealing with a 1200 ha terrestrial forest, it IS fragmented - exactly like an island), a book based completely on evolutionary theory, I can't even formulate the questions, let alone figure out the answers.
Here's an example: Is it safe to ignore that patch of Agave americana and focus on a larger population of something else? Or does the Agave present the greater long-term threat? Only by looking at the evolutionary history of the plant in its native habitat - how it adapts, how it propagates, how frequently it has been invasive in other similar areas, how broad a home range does it have, how has it expanded or contracted in the past, etc, can I even begin to answer the question. I don't "use" evolution on a daily basis. Rather, the work I do rests 100% on a foundation built by other scientists over time that does depend on evolution. It isn't just so-called microevolution or population genetics. Biogeography - a key element in fragmented landscape ecology - wouldn't even exist without the long-term framework of "macroevolution". Without biogeography, I have nothing to work off of.
I don't really follow the use of fossils that you describe in b., however, and wonder if you could explain that better so that I can see what if anything it has to do with evolution. Thanks.
Not even going to bother, Faith. If you can hand-wave away part a, there's no point in expending bandwidth on the other. Ask yourself this question, however: how do fossils relate to biogeography? Answer that, and you have the answer to your question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 11:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 12:42 PM Quetzal has replied
 Message 67 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2006 1:28 PM Quetzal has replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5897 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 68 of 312 (325354)
06-23-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by deerbreh
06-23-2006 1:28 PM


Re: Ecology and Evolution
Thanks deerbreh. In this case it's less Gish Gallop than moving the goal posts. Ah, well. I'll come up with some kind of response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2006 1:28 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 1:40 PM Quetzal has replied
 Message 77 by deerbreh, posted 06-23-2006 2:07 PM Quetzal has not replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5897 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 71 of 312 (325361)
06-23-2006 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
06-23-2006 1:40 PM


Re: Ecology and Evolution
Patience, Faith. I'm trying to develop a response that doesn't require scanning and then posting the contents of several textbooks and literature references. I'm not sure a nice little two-three paragraph response is going to satisfy you, but that's likely all you'll get.
OTOH, in the meantime, it might be useful for you to express EXACTLY what you'd accept, since I've already covered both specific and general cases related to my field.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 1:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 1:55 PM Quetzal has not replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5897 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 102 of 312 (325426)
06-23-2006 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
06-23-2006 12:42 PM


Re: Ecology and Evolution
The complete answer to your question would require several volumes to explain. So I’m going to take one single, tiny piece and attempt to show how evolution (macroevolution for those who insist on this arbitrary distinction), forms a part of the bedrock upon which my work rests. As I said before, I don’t “do” evolution on a daily basis. Rather, what I do on a daily basis would be impossible if others hadn’t done the hard bits - using evolutionary theory to develop an understanding of nature that allowed them to generalize from specifics. Those generalizations form the basis for what I do. The taxon cycle appears to fit your request. It is one of - not the only - the bases for biogeographical patterns that have direct bearing on the work done by those of us who operate in fragmented habitats, because these habitats are functionally equivalent to islands. Islands are where the taxon cycle was first identified.
The taxon cycle is one of the foundational parts of island biogeography. It explains the pattern observed in biological succession on islands - a pattern that has been confirmed by observations of Krakatao and Surtsey, as well as older islands such as Madagascar. I will be substituting “fragment” for island here, as the exact same patterns have been observed in fragmented habitats. The taxon cycle is a macroevolutionary explanation that shows how over evolutionary timescales colonization leads to increasing endemicity and vulnerability to subsequent colonization. The cycle couples paleontology to observation of modern species. Besides the areas that are pertinent to my work (vulnerability to invasion), it also provides an explanation for such observations as character displacement, adaptive radiation, relictual populations in fragmented/island-type habitats, rapid speciation, and faunal turnover.
There are four stages of the taxon cycle:
I. In stage one, organisms invade the fragment from outside. These may be populations which are related to those already present, or may represent non-native exotics. IOW, depending on distance, species dispersal ability is the key criteria.
II. In stage two, the invader may expand its niche by invading other habitats. Species gradually evolve local forms that become restricted to a subset of the available habitat. They then become vulnerable to being out-competed in their original niche by further specialized invaders.
III. Species can become highly differentiated endemics that ultimately become extinct and are replaced by new invaders. Stage three species thus evidence a longer history of evolution in isolation, being found in scattered endemic forms.
IV. The final distributional pattern in the cycle is when a highly differentiated endemic species persists as a relic OR is found only as fossil or sub-fossil remains.
One reason for the success of invaders, as outlined above, is that a recent arrival may have left behind predators, parasites, and competitors on colonizing the new habitat, enabling it to flourish despite the existence of local forms with a longer period of evolutionary adaptation. We can tell relatively when a species has established itself and roughly what stage it is in by examination of the fossil record (this is especially true on large, old islands such as Hawaii and Madagascar). Distribution patterns of existing species are also indicative of relative “age” and stage, as invasives will have a greater effect on population distribution as earlier species get “squeezed” into smaller habitat patches. This is also a way to tell how impacted the habitat is by the invasive (what stage it is in).
How is this macroevolution? We can trace changes in faunal assemblages on islands through the paleontological and paleoecological records. An example, New Providence Island in the Caribbean has changed from a highly xeric environment in the Late Pleistocene, to a moist tropical environment today. Faunal assemblages have changed as much as 50% in that time frame. In those areas where a good sub-fossil record exists, we can trace the gradual change over fairly recent time frames due to environmental shifts or waves of invasives. None of this, of course, depends on absolute dates - relative dates are sufficient. Plus, we can get a pretty fair “timeframe” from observations of new islands such as Anak Krakatao to show the amount of time necessary for short term adaptations and subsequent waves of colonization to affect the local systems.
So where does this lead in my work? As I noted, I don’t try and “re-prove” the taxon cycle in my daily work. I don’t have to - someone else (many someones, actually), has already done that. However, I can and do use the concepts “proven” by the hypothesis as a foundation for some questions I need to answer. For instance, using the Agave americana example from my previous post, I can finally answer the question: Should I be worried?. Using the concepts developed under the pertinent aspects of the taxon cycle hypothesis, coupled with other observations from biogeography, I can look at a comparison of the Agave’s native habitat and my site (both xeric, for instance). I can look at a comparison between the community composition of the species’ native range, and the one I’m concerned about (Agave parasites, diseases, herbivores, etc) to determine if there are any species with counter-adaptations in my site that would control or limit expansion of Agave populations. Finally, I can look at the historical record of Agave distribution patterns in other areas and formulate a risk assessment in mine (i.e., is it susceptible to ecological release, etc). Each of these concepts is based on a macroevolutionary theory developed from applying paleontological and paleoecological patterns to existing species and populations. I’m not concerned about macroevolution in my daily work, but that work would not be possible - or worse, would be wrong - UNLESS the macroevolutionary concepts had proven accurate over the long term. From the distribution patterns of Molothrus bonairiensis in the Lesser Antilles to the invasion risk from an exotic import, it all depends on macroevolutionary theory. Not using “macroevolution” daily, but the concepts developed under the theory are the ones I DO apply every day. And remember, the taxon cycle is only one, teeny tiny aspect of biogeography, which is indeed only one aspect of my work. I can make a similar case for just about all the rest of what I do - at least as far as the theoretical underpinnings I rely on are concerned.
Wave it away as you wish, the framework provided by the ToE - not just population genetics - is critical for decision-making in current applied ecology.
Excuse me, I need to go dig up that damn Agave patch before it eats my reserve.
{The outline of the taxon cycle above was derived in part from Whittaker, RJ, 2002, Island Biogeography, Oxford Uni Press. I have used the conceptual framework of this book so often as a reference that I've had to replace it twice.}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 12:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 06-24-2006 3:41 AM Quetzal has replied

Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5897 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 123 of 312 (325746)
06-24-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
06-24-2006 3:41 AM


Re: This level of science is YEC-friendly
If that's the best you can do, I guess we'll have to let the readers decide. After all, the entire theory - all the concepts - concerning the taxon cycle is predicated on both "macroevolution" and long time frames. The observations that have been conducted vary (depending on taxa and location), from the Late Pleistocene to the Late Cretacious. ALL of the concepts were developed from macroevolution. If you are incapable of reading simple English, I'm afraid there's not mucb more I can tell you.

"Cuisve hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseverare." Cicero

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 06-24-2006 3:41 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-24-2006 5:23 PM Quetzal has not replied

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