YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution

Okay, to answer some of the questions we do need some information from you, can you tell us (within some reasonable bounds) when creation happened, when the alleged Fall happened, when the supposed Flood happened.For example:

• creation 6000 years ago ± 100 years?
• fall 5990 6010 years ago ± 1 year?
• flood 4000 years ago ± 10 years?

Edited by jar, : fix error in dates

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I know you're busy but it would really help us understand the YEC position if we could get answers to the questions in Message 57.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Do you believe in a Young Earth? If so, what age?Do you believe in a Fall and that at that moment basic things changed? If so, when did that happen?Faith, unless we have a clue exactly what it is you are saying, how can we answer the questions realated to what effect those things you espouse would have?Really, can you give us some indication of the time frames as outlined in Message 57.For example:

• creation 6000 years ago ± 100 years?
• fall 5990 6010 years ago ± 1 year?
• flood 4000 years ago ± 10 years?

AbE:Once I looked through a telescope and saw the Andromeda Galaxy. I would like to know where it is in relation to the earth, how far away for example. From the information I can gather from astronomers it apears they believe that it is about 2 million light years away from us. Since I personally saw it, light from Andromeda is currently reaching us.Under the YEC perspective, how can we determine the distance of any distant object?Edited by jar, : add specific exampleEdited by jar, : fix dates

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's nice, but much of our current knowledge is based on measurements. The fact is we can see light from Andromeda. If the YEC position is true, how far away is Andromeda and how can we see the light from it? I did not ask for exact number in Message 57 but rather a number with bounds, ranges of confidence. YEC is your position, not mine and so I think it would be both unreasonable and unfair for ME to assign the definition of what YEC means.Here are the types of information needed:For example:

• creation 6000 years ago ± 100 years?
• fall 5990 6010 years ago ± 1 year?
• flood 4000 years ago ± 10 years?

If you agree with those then simply say yes and we can then proceed. If you do not, then simply post what it is you think should be used. Afterall, YOU are trying to build a case for YEC.These dates are important and as we proceed I hope to be able to demonstrate why.You agree that after the fall things such as rates of radioactive decay and the speed of light are pretty much as we see them today. Is that correct? Edited by jar, : fix dates

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Right now we are discussing Young Earth. Does that mean you are willing to admit that the Earth is not young, but in fact very old?If we are at the point where you have abandoned Young Earth, then we can move on. If you are not, then we need to understand just what YEC entails and so need an answer to the questions raised in Message 57.

• creation 6000 years ago ± 100 years?
• fall 5990 6010 years ago ± 1 year?
• flood 4000 years ago ± 10 years?

Have you abandoned things like the Creation, the Fall, the Flood, or are those still positions you hold?AbE: wanted to fix a really big error and apologizeEdited by jar, : No reason given.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I see that you have moved on but I still would like to get an answer to the questions raised in Message 57 and many times since, most recently in Message 78.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

but to continue the topic of this thread we really need some information. Can you answer the questions originally asked in Message 57 and that have been repeated at least five times since then, particularly in Message 78?If you are abandoning the idea or YEC, that is fine. If not, could you please answer the questions so that we can proceed?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I know you are busy but I would really like to know what YEC means. This question has been asked in
Message 57,
Message 62,
Message 66,
Message 73,
Message 78,
Message 86,
Message 94 and yet again but you still have not answered.Are these the basic assumptions of YEC?

• creation 6000 years ago ± 100 years?
• fall 5990 6010 years ago ± 1 year?
• flood 4000 years ago ± 10 years?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

or seem willing to discuss the implications of YECism, maybe I can ask you to consider a few key areas where I get confused.If there was a flood about 4000 years ago, where at most seven of any given kind (except human kind where more than seven were included), and since 4000 years ago all other critters got killed off, would it be reasonable to expect to see a genetic bottleneck in every creature that could be dated to about 4000 years ago?If we look, and do not see that evidence, is that not enough to refute several key points of genetics, enough to make us throw the whole thing out as falsified?Would that not mean that

• the genetic clock is off by several orders of magnitude and species dependant even within kind or
• the process of genetics is different for every species or
• we really don't have a clue what is going on geneticly

If only 4000 years ago the total critter population of the earth was reduced to what would fit on a football field, and that from that population came all of the variety and variation that we see today, would that not mean:

• that macroevolution happens at a rate far faster than any of the mechanisms currently know
• we should be seeing things like cats birthing lions right now or certainly within the period of recorded history
• that all we know about microevolution today is wrong.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It would still help if you would answer the questions raised in Message 57 and at least six other places in this thread. In addition, the YEC position would mean that we have to toss out our current understanding of genetics and the understanding of microevolution as well as pointed out in Message 108.There is one other very important issue. If YECism is correct, then it is certainly possible to know what the conditions were before the alleged fall.You have claimed that the conditions changed at the fall. So if we use current conditions, for example rates of radioactive decay, and look at a site such as Oklo, it should be possible to determine what the pre-alleged fall conditions were.Oklo, as but one example, gives us a basis. Since the half-life of Uranium Isotopes is sufficiently long that today's conditions are virtually identical to what existed 5990 years ago, all of the radioactive decay must have happened in the ten years between the alleged creation and the alleged fall. All that is needed is for the YECism proponents to describe the physics that explains how all that took place in a period of ten years. It should be a piece of cake for the YECistas to create a physics that compresses 1,700,000,000 years of radioactive decay into 10 years.Once they have developed that physics, it then is possible to take their model and apply it to other situations, stars for example, and see if it works. If it is generally applicable, well then there might be some possibility that YECista Physics is posible.I'm sure everyone is waiting to see the YECistas produce such models.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It is clear that Faith simply is unable to defend or support any assertion she makes.She cannot tell anyone what the YEC position is and then whines that we fail to consider the YEC position.She asks for practical examples and then when they are given she falls back on answers like She questions our integrity yet she has failed to tell anyone what those YEC views are.When you bring up a specific example, filling an aquifer, her response is: as though that had anything to do with what you were talking about.Person after person has given her specific examples and her only response has been to whine that they are not examples, or to totally ignore them as she does with many specific examples.Like the example I provided earlier, your example is a perfect place where the YECista Scientists could test their assumption.We have a set of known conditions today. Under YECista assumptions they move water through the aquifer for 5990 years. All the YECista Scientists need to do is provide the model that compresses 829,990 additional years worth of fluid motion through the aquifer in 10 years.Once they have the model, it can be tested against the Mississippian Aquifer and in the Everglades for falidity.These are practical examples of the effort needed if the YECistas wish to be considered scientists.So here are several specific models needed from YECistas.How is 829,990 years of percolation compressed into 10 years?How is 1.7 Billion years of radioactive decay compressed into 10 Years.Why is there no uniform genetic bottleneck seen in all species 4000 years ago?Why do we not see the macro evolution required if all the worlds population of critters was reduced to only what would fit on a football field just 4000 years ago.The problem is that Young Earth simply is refuted by fact after fact after fact; refuted in discipline after discipline after discipline.Young Earth simply cannot be supported except by an act of wilfull ignorance.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

They claim that conditions changed at the Fall. But then when you are not looking, they try to palm that pea so they can play with physics at the flood too.YECs are simply conmen. They are hucksters, cheating folk on the street corner with a Three Card Monte.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well actually, yes. Funny you should ask.In this very thread, beginning back at Message 57 and on at least six messages since then, in this VERY thread, I have asked Faith to tell us when Creation, the alleged Fall and the asserted Flood happened. You would think that these might be things YECs knew since they are the basis of their mythology.But would you believe it, I got no response, not one single answer. Looks like they are not just ignorant of the world they live in and science in general, looks like they are pretty ignorant of their own mythology.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

It seems that we also have several specific examples waiting for YECista explanations.In Message 66 we have the issue of the Andromeda Galaxy.There Faith did respond saying that Astronomy had to be specifically excluded. It alone refutes YECism.But there are other issues.In Message 108 we have the issues of the gentic clock and the required hyper-macroevolution required by YECism.No YECistas bothered to explain those.Then there was Angalards questions related to hydrolgical flow in aquifers which was never resolved.Then in Message 126 the example of the Oklo reactors came up. Again, not one YECista can offer any explanation.Is there a pattern showing up here?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Does that mean you know when asserted Creation, the supposed Fall and the alleged flood happened and are just not going to tell us?Is that the reason you won't address the specific example that I and others have provided?Is that the reason that there really are NO creation scientists?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion