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Author Topic:   YEC Problem with Science Above and Beyond Evolution
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 12 of 312 (325007)
06-22-2006 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
06-22-2006 7:19 PM


"Workaday science"
Only with respect to the EVOLUTIONIST ASPECTS OF THOSE subjects, which are delineated in the OP. I still say that doesn't appreciably affect workaday science.
Please detail the experience you have in "workaday science" in each of the fields described that is the basis for your opinion.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 06-22-2006 7:19 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 06-22-2006 7:36 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 14 of 312 (325012)
06-22-2006 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by iano
06-22-2006 7:36 PM


Re: "Workaday science"
Faith made a statement about how science is done on the workaday level. I'm simply inquiring what her experience is to support that opinion. If you think it's "outlandish" for me not to accept every opinion that anyone expresses without wondering whether they have a basis for that opinion, I guess I can live with you thinking me outlandish.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by iano, posted 06-22-2006 7:36 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 06-22-2006 7:49 PM subbie has not replied
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 06-22-2006 7:50 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 17 of 312 (325019)
06-22-2006 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Faith
06-22-2006 7:50 PM


Re: "Workaday science"
So you don't know anything about how science is actually done on a workaday basis, you are simply assuming based on your understanding of evolution, is that what you are saying?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Faith, posted 06-22-2006 7:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 06-22-2006 7:58 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 26 of 312 (325038)
06-22-2006 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Faith
06-22-2006 7:58 PM


Re: "Workaday science"
Scientists don't begin every day with a blank page. Every field of science has innumerable facts, theories and laws that are taken as established by those working in the field. The point of the OP is that, if YEC is true, many the underlying facts, theories and laws in every one of those fields will have to be abandoned.
You demonstrate a deeply flawed understanding of science of you truly believe that it wouldn't make any difference.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Faith, posted 06-22-2006 7:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 1:52 AM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 32 of 312 (325136)
06-23-2006 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
06-23-2006 1:52 AM


Re: "Workaday science"
Well, I pretty much did in my previous post, but I'll give it another go.
Every scientific discipline has certain basics that have been established over the years. These basics form the foundation of all work that is being done in the various disciplines. To take an example from the OP, one of the foundations of nuclear physics is our understanding and theories about how atoms decay. Virtually everything we think we know about the atom would need to be tossed out if we abandon our understanding of atomic decay.
This is just one example. A similar consequence will follow in every field that anglagard mentioned, as well as many, many others. In fact, we would need to start from scratch in just about everything.
Gathering data, making observations, building theories, all these things require that certain facts and theories be accepted by those doing the observing, etc. Those facts and theories are accepted because they have been well-established by scientific standards. What's more, they work. To simply discard them without replacing them with something that does a better job than they do is insane.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 1:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 11:21 AM subbie has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 84 of 312 (325391)
06-23-2006 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
06-23-2006 1:58 PM


An analogy
I cannot improve upon Quetzal's post describing in detail how and why abandoning the ToE would destroy the work that he does on a daily basis. Moreover, I am quite confident that a similar description could be written for 1,000s, 10,000s, of subspecialities in every field mentioned in the OP.
Your dismissal of the point Quetzal made shows you still do not appreciate the importance of Message 32, despite having a night to sleep on it. So let me try to give you an analogy.
About 15 years ago, I worked next to a site where they were building a modern, multi-story office building, maybe 15, 20 stories. The foundation and structure of the building were composed of rebar and poured concrete. It was fascinating to watch them pump tens of thousands of gallons of concrete, and if my boss had known how much time I spent watching that process, I probably wouldn't have finished my full term in that position.
No part of the structure of the building was made of plywood. In fact, I don't think there was a single piece of any kind of wood anywhere in the building, until the time came to finish the interior. However, it would have been impossible to build that building without plywood. The carpenters on site spent hours and hours building forms into which the concrete was pumped. The plywood held the concrete in place until the concrete hardened, then it was removed.
So, even though there was no wood in the supporting structure of the building, wood was a necessary component to the construction of the building.
Accepting YEC would require discarding so much underlying science that it would be impossible to construct anything. In much the same way that the plywood gave form to the concrete, the basics of physics, geology, anthropology, geosciences, biosciences and chemistry give form and provide the foundation for everything that every scientist does in those fields.
The problem that you seem to refuse to accept is that adopting YEC would require much more than simply tossing out the ToE. I understand that you think all evolutionists are a bunch of mind-numbed robots simply following the company line. But you must admit that those who do science on a regular basis know quite a bit more about it than you do. So, if you refuse to accept what they are saying about the incredible impact that YEC would have to every field of scientific inquiry, I'm afraid that I don't see much point in continuing the discussion with you.
Let me make one suggestion. Instead of reading what is written solely with an eye to trying to fit it into your world-view, try thinking seriously about it and see if you can't understand the points we are making. I know it's entertaining to try to best the other person in a debate, and find a way around the points he is making. But at the same time, it's also entertaining, at least it is for me, to think about what they are saying to see if I can learn something in the process.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 1:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:03 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 95 of 312 (325415)
06-23-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:03 PM


Re: An analogy
One thing at a time please. It's a big deal to get across to anyone that science really is not dependent on the ToE as you all think. It can only confuse matters to get all caught up in the whole other frame of reference of YEC.
Well, since the OP referred to YEC, and not just ToE, I am taking one thing at a time, the topic. The point of the OP is that YEC impacts a whole lot more than just the ToE, and I think that's a very important point to be made.
I think I've proved that Quetzal's work has nothing to do with the ToE....
You're entitled to think anything you like, but all you did was state that it doesn't. Quetzal says that it does, and, no offense intended, but I'm going to give him a lot more credit for knowing what he does on a daily basis that I am going to give you.
I would suggest instead that you try to understand what I am saying.
You can believe me or not, I really couldn't care less, but I am considering what you say. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'm considering more deeply than you are. I'm considering not only the meaning of the words that you use, and the possibility that you in fact might be correct, but I'm also considering the impact, the consequences, if what you are saying is true. On the other hand, unless you've had a major shift in your world view, I'm pretty sure you're not even considering the possibility that what I am saying, along with many others, could be true. It conflicts with your interpretation of the bible, a minority interpretation, by the way, and therefore so you dismiss it as a possibility. Am I right about that?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:41 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 99 of 312 (325423)
06-23-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:41 PM


Re: An analogy
Well, then, am I right or wrong that most practical science doesn't really make use of the ToE?
I'll tell you what. I'll work on an answer to that question while I'm making dinner, lasagna and garlic cheese bread.
In the meantime, please do me the courtesy of answering my question.
On the other hand, unless you've had a major shift in your world view, I'm pretty sure you're not even considering the possibility that what I am saying, along with many others, could be true. It conflicts with your interpretation of the bible, a minority interpretation, by the way, and therefore so you dismiss it as a possibility. Am I right about that?

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:53 PM subbie has replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 101 of 312 (325425)
06-23-2006 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
06-23-2006 3:53 PM


Re: An analogy
That accepting YEC would require basically starting over from scratch in virtually every scientific discipline.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-23-2006 3:53 PM Faith has not replied

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