20 years of the Creation/ID science curriculum

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Evos have resorted to the courts to silence criticism of their theory.

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False.They went to the courts to keep religion out of public school science classrooms.Anyone is free to criticize any part of Biology or Genetics, both inside and outside the profession of science.

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Evos are arguing students should be kept from hearing creationist and ID arguments.

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Should Holocaust deniers be given equal time to present their arguments in History class, and are mainstream historians just trying to protect students from hearing the arguments?

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However, allowing children to see that it is not necessarily categorically proven that macroevolution by random mutation is 'truth'is a very good idea -no matter what you think is true.
Allow them to think rather than rely on materialistic dogma -that's the point.

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1) Nobody would teach that since it isn't what evolution claims.You forgot about the exceedingly non-random part of evolution that is natural selection.Selection Selection Selection Selection Selection Selection SelectionYou Evolution-deniers have a crippling mental block that apparently renders you all incapable of remembering that there are two mechanisms required for evolution; random mutation AND natural selection.2) It isn't necessarily categorically proven that the mainstream Historical account of the Holocaust is true. There are some people who believe that the version of this historical event taught in schools is inaccurate and dogmatic.Should we encourage children to consider Holocaust-denial theories just as valid as the mainstream ones? Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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So just to be clear there is no mental block and no ID proponent has ever denied natural selection as fact -they just don't believe that natural selection combined with mutation have any sort of creative ability.

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Of course, that's not what most of the major ID proponents say. Behe certainly accepts that mutation and natural selection have loads of creative ability.So, you aren't arguing the ID position at all, but the good old fashioned ICR-style Creationist position.

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No we should show the historical evidence for the holocaust, photos, newspapers,historical documentation, eye-witness accounts and then mention (possibly) that some people deny it despite the evidence presented. Then leave it to them to decide whether it happened or not.

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So you actually agree with the statement: If you tell them that they should decide for themselves if the Holocaust really happened or not, then you are most certainly giving more weight to the holocaust deniers' interpretation of the evidence than it deserves, and elevating it to something above its crackpot nature.OTOH, are you saying that you just want science teachers to teach all about evolution, and then mention (possibly) that there are some people who deny it despite the evidence presented? Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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No; present the evidence for evolution and the evidence for intelligent design and the negative evidence against each argument and let them critically analyse the argument-no need to take a dogmatic stand on something you cannot prove.

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But we can do exactly the same thing with the Holocaust, you know.The Holocaust deniers have lots and lots of evidence that they say proves that their conclusions are correct. Lots of books and articles are out there, with pictures, diagrams, statistics,...just like in the books which present the mainstream view of WWII history.Both Holocaust deniers and Evolution deniers can provide lots and lots of evidence which they say supports their claims.Why do you want one to be presented in schools in order to let the children decide but not the other? Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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The Theory of Evolution says chimps morphed into men from an ancient ape ancestor that lived millions of years ago.

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Wrong.Chimps never "morphed into men", just like you didn't "morph" out of one of your ancestors 100 generations ago.Chimps and men have a common ancestor, just like you have a common ancestor with your siblings.Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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The Bible is the most respected Source in the world

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Not really.I am sure that NASA doesn't consult the Bible when they want to, for example, send astronauts to the moon and back aboard a rocket.

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You need not be so paranoid, we are only trying to restore a scientific theory that over half of all adults in America accept as true.

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Science isn't decided by public opinion.If it were, then we would have classes on Astrology in school.

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The conversations I had were with Fundamentalist Christians and Theistic evolutionists. Both accept microevolution. I do not.

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Wait, you don't accept that new species have been observed to emerge?Even though they have been directly observed to have done so in real time, both in the lab and in the field?

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Americans from Los Angeles (where I was born and raised) do not fear our inferiors.

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Have you been to Japan or Europe?I have been to Japan and, let's see, seven European countries, and let me tell you, in many respects, each one is at leat equal and often superior to America.Healthcare, food, wine, education, public transportation, politeness, violent crime rate (especially Japan), etc.LA's annual gunshot homicide rate is probably greater than that of Europe and Japan combined.

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Evolution is a religion that has been forced onto America by anti-religious fanatics. It has nothing to do with science.

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So, do you accept that DNA paternity tests are accurate? Edited by nator, : No reason given.

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If you want to get back on the wagon, email me and I will sponsor you.

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Obviously, this is an avoidant non-answer.When you get back from suspension, how about answering the question?

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Yes it must be changed so that material causes are not the only ones allowed to be considered.

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So should we teach, in science class, that Astrology is valid?Or that poltergeists really move things in houses?

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some things are better explained by non-material causes.

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Can you please provide some examples of how non-material explanations of anything has increased our understanding of it?

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What's all this trash about astrology being immune to scientific inquiry? Astrology is simple enough to test: get a list of predictions and see how accurate they are. Duh! I'd say it's been done, but I'm not going to go chasing sources. The results don't matter one bit. What matters is that it can be tested.

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Well, sort of.Astrology as it is generally practiced by its adherents is an unfalsifiable system. All of the professional astrologers I've ever heard about have a ready convenient excuse every time one of their predictions is completely wrong, i.e.: "Well, this prediction may seem wrong, but you see you are on the cusp of Libra, and Saturn is in the seventh house, so that's the explanation for why X happened instead of Y as I predicted." or somesuch.Good info on Astrology can be found here.

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Now how can ID be counter to evolution? ID only questions abiogenesis, which is "supposed" to be a separate issue. Looks like these two "separate" issues are siamese twins. They're joined at the head and the heart, and if one dies the other can't last.

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Not really.More religious notions of origins have died than exist today, that's for sure.Science, since it is not a set-in-stone revealed religious "truth" but a reality-based one that is both self-correcting and willing to say "we don't know", has far more staying power than any religion.

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If astrology weren't subject to scientific investigation, the lawyer might have had a point. As it has been investigated scientifically, it must be considered an hypothesis by any honest person.

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Astrology as it is generally practiced by its adherents is an unfalsifiable system. All of the professional astrologers I've ever heard about have a ready convenient excuse every time one of their predictions is completely wrong, i.e.: "Well, this prediction may seem wrong, but you see you are on the cusp of Libra, and Saturn is in the seventh house, so that's the explanation for why X happened instead of Y as I predicted." or somesuch.Good info on Astrology can be found here.

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Of course there's a great fear of ID in evolutionist circles.

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There's great fear that ID, which is religion, will be forced into public school science classrooms.