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Author Topic:   20 years of the Creation/ID science curriculum
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4044
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 100 of 305 (454315)
02-06-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Beretta
02-06-2008 9:49 AM


Re: one thing is clear
quote:
Well, in looking at some of "his" designs, I'd have to say that in reality "he" falls pretty low on the intelligence scale
Well we humans are a lot dumber, we know what's going on inside a cell but we can't seem to make even the simplest of life from scratch.If mutation is happening all the time and entropy is going on all the time, isn't it just possible that what you are seeing now is the corrupted version of the original creation? Maybe that's why the design starts to look shabby.
Dumber than what?
The fact that we don't have all of the answers does not mean that the answers we do have are not highly accurate.
Your "corruption of the original creation" idea shows that you don't understand what entropy and mutation are.
quote:
It in no way makes any conclusions or statements in any way related to the Divine.
Well if evolution is what it seems to be according to the evolutionist, what would there be for the creator to do? Nothing it seems. So you see God is removed from the equation just by presupposing material causes for everything and that is making a statement about God.
So your god is the "god of the gaps." Have fun being pushed into smaller and smaller corners as we discover more about the world. I'm sure living in the stone age is fun for you.
You know, if the heliocentric model is what it seems to be according to astronomers, what would there be for the creator to do? I mean, he wouldn't need to be pushing the Sun around the sky! So you see god is removed from the equation just by presupposing material causes for everything and that is making a statement about god.
You haven't thought this through very hard have you.
quote:
It can explain the diversity of life we see without the need for divine explanations.
We could all explain it but is it true? We have to make it up from what we can observe because nobody was there to see it happen.
If you see a tree lying down in a forest, would you really argue that it might not have fallen just becasue there wasn't anybody around to see it fall? Because that's the ridiculous argument you just made.
quote:
I look around at nature, and I see no evidence of an intelligent designer.
Well there you are you see. If you can look around and see the things on this earth and conclude that no intelligence was required to produce intelligence and beauty and variety, then you are (as the Bible says) without excuse.
Exactly what leads you to believe an "intelligent" designer is responsible? Your incredulity at the opposite? Your appeal to the authority of a musty old collection of stoneage mythology? Your ignorance of the science you claim is incorrect?
quote:
The abolition of slavery? Racial and Women's suffrage? Are these some of the atheist corruptions of which you speak?
Wow, I somehow doubt that atheists were responsible for that - you're actually talking about the positive side-effects of a Christian mindset.Atheists are all about survival of the fittest aren't they?
You're right that Atheists were not responsible for either of those - it was a combination of multiple faiths (and possibly Atheists - it hasn't been very safe to be an Atheist until recent times) deciding that the previous religious justifications for slavery and denying women the right to vote were wrong.
And I take offense to your ignorant statement regarding Atheists and "survival of the fittest." Atheists do not believe in deities, but we do almost unanimously hold human life and happiness in the utmost regard, and care for the sick and poor. In fact, since we don't believe in an afterlife, this life is vastly more important to us than to the religious - it's all we have.
The Theory of Evolution does state that those most fit for their environments will survive to spawn the next generation. But the Theory of Evolution is not a model for morality - that's a human construct, and one we Atheists are perfectly capable of forming rationally on our own.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Beretta, posted 02-06-2008 9:49 AM Beretta has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4044
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 114 of 305 (454351)
02-06-2008 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Cold Foreign Object
02-06-2008 2:59 PM


Since you actually believe apes morphed into men why wouldn't you think I was delusional? Based on said belief concerning apes and men, I am glad that you think I am delusional. The approval of your kind would certainly make me delusional.
What would the world look like after 20 years of Creationism/ID being taught in schools?
Ray makes me think the movie "Idiocracy" might not be so far off the mark, after all.
Nobody suggests apes "morphed" into anything, Ray. You've been around here long enough that if you're still parading that sad strawman of evolution, you're either deliberately being dishonest, you're ignoring everything anyone ever says to you, or you're incapable of comprehending even the most trivial claims of evolution.
How's that paper coming, Ray? I'm sure you still think you're going to topple the Theory of Evolution from the position of the most accurate explanation for observed evidence, but from what I see, you've got about as much a chance as a kindergartner.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-06-2008 2:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-06-2008 5:30 PM Rahvin has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4044
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 144 of 305 (454526)
02-07-2008 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2008 2:02 PM


Re: Paging a creationist moderator...
ogically, since you - an Atheist evolutionist - support them, they cannot be real Creationists because an Atheist evolutionist would never support a real Creationist.
We know that these "Creationists" are Fundamentalists and they accept microevolution. I am glad all of you reject me. The support of any one of you would prove me to be just like you.
Ray
Can you say "persecution complex?"
Or maybe even "paranoid schizophrenia?"
Percy's not an Atheist, Ray, you know that. You just like to throw the word around at anyone who doesn't agree with you as if it were some sort of insult.
The best part of all of this (aside from the early morning laughs Trixie has provided) is that now we finally get to do some research regarding this "scientist" you've based your vapid paper on! I can't wait to see the sort of lunacy this guy must have come up with to inspire your ravings!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-07-2008 2:02 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-07-2008 2:23 PM Rahvin has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4044
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 169 of 305 (454577)
02-07-2008 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2008 4:45 PM


Dr. Scott?
Just a note on Ray's "Dr. Scott" from the conversation Trixie found:
Taken from Wikipedia:
quote:
As a minister and scholar, however, Scott was difficult to pin down theologically. He preached lessons that tended to emphasize biblical philology and his own idiosyncratic social gospel over traditional evangelical themes such as sin, repentance and being "born again". On the other hand, he frequently railed against what he considered to be government intrusion on his activities, and gave credence to government conspiracy theories about UFOs and other phenomena.
...
He earned his Ph.D. in Philosophies of Education at Stanford University in 1957 and subsequently served as an ordained minister for almost 50 years.
...
In 1975, Scott began a series of broadcasts, which resulted in the creation of the University Network. By 1983, the University Network was broadcasting his sermons twenty-four hours a day via satellite to the United States and Canada, as well as to much of Mexico and the Caribbean. By 1990, his network was available to 180 countries, and by 1992 his sermons were being broadcast in several languages on AM, FM, and short-wave radio. His programming consisted of his trademark informal style of Bible teaching mixed with provocative commentary, music, and personal interests in such diverse subjects as his paintings, scientific interpretations of the great wonders of the world, and his American saddle-bred horses.
So, essentially, Ray bases all of his mindless drivel and insane ramblings on a televangelist. This "Dr. Scott" had a Ph.D. in Philosophies of Education, not any science-related field! This is not a biologist, or a chemist, or a physicist, he's a freaking Jerry Falwell clone (I know Ray, your beloved Dr. Scott would hate to be called that).
Scott did nothing whatsoever in any field of science from what I can determine. The closest he ever got would be topics on his radio show discussing science - which gives him all of the credibility of George Noory on Coast to Coast rambling about psychics, Bigfoot, and little green men.
This is the world Ray wants: there is no scientific research, no further advances in any form of technology. Only reading and re-reading the Bible, and fantasizing over what "may" have been the mechanisms behind such laughably falsified claims as the global flood, 6-day Creationism, a young Earth, etc. This may not be the result of 20 years of ID/Creationism being taught in schools, but it could well be the result of 50 years. A society of morons with Bibles, not bothering to do any actual research, seeking answers for everything in a series of stone age myths. Medical research? It depends on evolution and other actual scientific principles, so it's an Atheist practice and should be banned. God will choose who lives. Technology? All inspiration required for scientific advances are clearly found in the Bible, right? I mean, Genesis is where science was invented, according to Ray.
SO go ahead, Ray. Refute Evolution. Share with us the mighty words of your televangelist idol. Let us know how a church pastor with little to no science education can refute the work of thousands of trained proffessionals, and in one fell swoop prove hundreds of years of observable, repeatable evidence wrong.
Lay it out, right here, right now, Ray, or you implicitly admit that you have nothing of substance, other than the crazy ramblings of a disturbed zealot.
ABE: Regarding Dr. Scott, from here: "He also devised an ingenious system to keep the government out of his financial affairs by demanding that his followers “give without strings”-i.e., donate their cash without having any idea what it’s going to be spent on. “The spirit of life goes to work for you . . . only if you give materially to me,” Scott says. “You should give to me if I wanted to go out and buy a rock band or the Mustang Ranch.”
Edited by Rahvin, : Added a quote from Dr. Scott the rabid televangelist

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-07-2008 4:45 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-07-2008 7:31 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4044
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 176 of 305 (454611)
02-07-2008 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2008 7:31 PM


Re: Dr. Scott?
Wikipedia is a Atheist controlled slander site. Anyone with a computer can contribute, like yourself, and write lies about Creationists and IDists.
Maybe you can tells us, who wrote the "article" on Dr. Scott, what is this persons name?
Was it Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins, Bozo412, or Britney Spears?
Hooded knowledge is illegitimate.
I included Wiki information because it agreed with everything else I found on him on the web, all in one nice concentrated little spot. Easy for quoting.
Is any of the information wrong, Ray, or did you just want to dismiss it as usual? All I see is the typical Ray throwing around the word "Atheist" at everyone who doesn't completely agree with Ray, as if it were some sort of insult. You're like McCarthy and Communists, except funnier because you aren't in a position of authority.
Dr. Scott was a Stanford Ph.D. He also earned three Ph.D. minors; Psychology, Comparative Religion and Geography. The latter accomplishment was by oral exam. He is the only person to obtain a Ph.D. minor in Geography by oral exam having never taken a class on the subject at Stanford.
His Masters degree was in Argicultural Geography which is a Geology-based degree. Dr. Scott was the eminent Bible scholar in the world. He, of course, refuted the Theory of Evolution, which explains your "televangelist" slander and the slander of your fellow Atheists in the news media. Televangelists do not have Ph.D.s from Stanford.
Jared Diamond is considered a scientist and he is probably the most respected pro-evolution author in the world today. His degree is in Geography.
I don't care about a pro-evolution author, Ray. Pro-evolution authors don't contribute to research - they write about what others have done. If evolution rested on the opinions of Jared Diamond, I'd dismiss it as handily as your televangelist buddy.
Dr. Scott does not have a degree in any field surrounding evolution, and has never practiced science of any kind - he's a televangelist minister, Ray, nothing more. Now, he may be a crazy televangelist who buys his own press, I'm not entirely sure - but he's certainly no authority on evolution.
Now, despite my severe doubts as to the quality of Dr. Scott's opinions regarding evolution, you still haven't provided us with his argument. Appeals to Authority and Ad Hominems are logical fallacies, so despite my misgivings, I;m more than willing to give Dr. Scott's words and thoughts a fair shake. In fact, I'm eager to hear the argument you claim falsifies evolution. We're waiting, Ray.
Of course the level of anger and slander seen in your post against Dr. Scott is in dierct ratio equal to the degree that you perceive him to be a threat to your theory.
This is not me angry or hostile, Ray. This is me laughing most heartily at your insane ravings and televangelist muse. I don't perceive him, or you as a threat to anything other than the pocketbooks of the gullible - and fortunately Dr. Scott is now deceased, so he won't be scamming grandmothers out of their money any time in the near future.
Dr. Scott, of course, like Dr. Velikovsky, were the two greatest scholars of all time. Evolution has no real scholars since scholars are bound to tell the truth.
Ray
Mmmm hmm. So, since you've still refused to provide your actual argument that destroys evolution, you agree that you implicitly concede that you have nothing, and your tirades are nothing more than the sad rantings of a crazed zealot.
Either you're too much of a coward to have your argument examined in public, or you simply don't have one, Ray.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-07-2008 7:31 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-07-2008 7:53 PM Rahvin has replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4044
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 179 of 305 (454614)
02-07-2008 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Cold Foreign Object
02-07-2008 7:53 PM


Re: Dr. Scott?
The degree of hate, rage and slander seen above is in direct ratio equal to the degree that you perceive Dr. Scott as a threat to your theory.
There is no hate or rage in my words. Simply amusement, and the joy of refuting a particularly poor position.
You calim I've slandered him - in what way? Is there anything untrue that I have said about him?
It was Dr. Scott who first pointed out: the acceptance of Darwinism is a penalty from God for denying Him credit as Creator.
This is explains why a theory with no evidence is accepted.
Ray
That is your mighty argument refuting evolution?! Projection and "holy wrath" nonsense?! No evidence, simply a bare assertion based on multiple false premises, including that the ToE is a punishment (if punishments regularly help develop cures for diseases, please punish me some more!), that all those who accept the ToE also deny "god" credit, and that there is no evidence for evolution?
You've got to be kidding me. No wonder your paper has never been finished, Ray.
I guess I was wrong in saying that you either had nothing or were a delusional zealot. You're both.

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 02-07-2008 7:53 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4044
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 262 of 305 (455739)
02-13-2008 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by CTD
02-13-2008 3:36 PM


Re: You kidder
I must assume you're either kidding or just being contrary.
There's been plenty of work done verifying the self-evident fact that randomness does not produce complexity.
I must assume you're either kidding or just plain lying.
There's been plenty of work verifying the self-evidence fact that randomness can and does produce complexity.
Ever heard of a snowflake? Fractals? Evolutionary algorithms? Salt crystals? Quartz crystals? Basically any other crystaline structure?
If evolutionists were true to their beliefs, I don't understand why they do some of the things they do. Upon buying a toy or piece of furniture which requires assembly, why do they not place it in the back yard and let it assemble itself? Heck, the design phase is already done, and the manufacturing as well - random forces should be able to at least finish the job.
If Creationists were true to their beliefs, I don't understand why they continually speak from ignorance or perpetuate blatant, repeatedly exposed inaccuracies, which amounts to lying.
Your ignorant strawman of evolution is a ridiculous mishmash of evolution, abiogenesis, and a complete absence of scientific knowledge.
Where is all of this ID work, CTD? Can you produce it, or are you lying?

When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by CTD, posted 02-13-2008 3:36 PM CTD has not replied

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