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Author Topic:   20 years of the Creation/ID science curriculum
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 1 of 305 (451146)
01-26-2008 2:22 PM


I have been trying to understand what Creationists and Intelligent Design proponents really want.

I just do not understand what vision they have of the future the U.S., if they are successful and their odd view of science education becomes the law of the land. Would science classes end up consisting of the kind of materials that are on display in the various creation/ID so-called “museums” i.e. dinosaurs and humans co-existing? These seem to ignore all the evidence, observations and conclusions that scientists have labored to use to describe the natural world for the past 150 years, so I assume none of that will be included in the science curricula.

So let us try to imagine what America is like 20 years after the creation/ID science curriculum becomes the law of the land.

Admin: I am not sure where this topic fits best.

Edited by Tanypteryx, : Admin request


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 01-26-2008 3:06 PM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 5 by Modulous, posted 01-27-2008 9:57 AM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 9 by randman, posted 01-27-2008 8:17 PM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 23 by Jazzns, posted 01-28-2008 4:33 PM Tanypteryx has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Trixie, posted 01-28-2008 4:55 PM Tanypteryx has responded
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2008 3:08 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2 of 305 (451158)
01-26-2008 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
01-26-2008 2:22 PM


Would you be willing to express this much more neutrally? You're actually asking what a creationist or ID educational curriculum would look like, and this would go in the Education and Creation/Evolution forum, but it might be better to remove the "cdesign proponentist" references and to modify or trim out the negative characterizations. If you edit your Message 1 then just post a short note letting me know you've done so.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 3 of 305 (451165)
01-26-2008 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
01-26-2008 3:06 PM


Percy, does this work better? I think I have a pretty good idea what their curriculum is. What I really want to know is how it would change America and why they would want that.

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Admin
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Message 4 of 305 (451321)
01-27-2008 9:03 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Modulous
Member (Idle past 441 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 5 of 305 (451333)
01-27-2008 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
01-26-2008 2:22 PM


From the Wedge strategy
quote:
Positive uptake in public opinion polls on issues such as sexuality, abortion and belief in God

They basically want a religious revival where materialism is rejected and everyone supports christian moral values - notably those regarding sexuality and abortion etc. As they say, they want...

quote:
To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.

They are running a bit behind schedule, but they were planning (by 2018)

To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science.
To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its innuence in the fine arts.
To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.

What they want is the religious right utopia. What we'll actually get? Well, I doubt it will be the collapse of civilization - but the US will have significant financial issues. I doubt it would affect just biology and who wants a non-materialist oil location company that uses the intelligent oil hider theory?

We saw what happens when science is undermined by religious agendas (not personally) in what happened to the Middle East. Hopefully that isn't the future of the USA.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 6 of 305 (451349)
01-27-2008 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Modulous
01-27-2008 9:57 AM


Re: From the Wedge strategy
quote:
What they want is the religious right utopia.

But they would settle for a good old-fashioned theocracy.

(Paging Nehemiah Scudder. Pick up the white courtesy telephone please.)


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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 7 of 305 (451365)
01-27-2008 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Modulous
01-27-2008 9:57 AM


Re: From the Wedge strategy
modulous writes:

They basically want a religious revival where materialism is rejected and everyone supports christian moral values - notably those regarding sexuality and abortion etc. As they say, they want...

I do not envision this happening, unless they somehow do achieve theocracy, and then can enforce adherence to their rules.....a chilling thought.

It would be a very odd world without scientific inquiry. Curiosity seems to be an inherent trait of humans. I am trying to imagine a society that stifles the need, by so many, to try and understand how everything works, from the universe down to the most basic biological processes.

We can already see the level of frustration in scientists that depend on government funding who cannot carry out research because of an ignorant, uneducated, fundamentalist in the white house. I am glad that he cannot yet stifle privately funded research.

modulous writes:

who wants a non-materialist oil location company that uses the intelligent oil hider theory?

I guess when the lights go out we can all pray for god to design new generators or better yet, to redesign our eyes to see in the dark. Or maybe stop "the sun from going around the earth" and make it daylight everywhere at the same time.....LOL


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley


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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2527 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 8 of 305 (451371)
01-27-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Modulous
01-27-2008 9:57 AM


Re: From the Wedge strategy
Modulous
They are running a bit behind schedule, but they were planning (by 2018)

To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science.
To see design theory application in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics and cosmology in the natural sciences, psychology, ethics, politics, theology and philosophy in the humanities; to see its innuence in the fine arts.
To see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.

Or welcome to the year 1418


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3236 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 9 of 305 (451475)
01-27-2008 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tanypteryx
01-26-2008 2:22 PM


critical thinking skills
I think the ID camp wants students to develop critical thinking skills and so wants both ID and evo theories to be taught and examined critically. Frankly, I cannot fathom why anyone wanting students to be educated would balk at, for example, teaching criticisms of evo theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-26-2008 2:22 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Trixie, posted 01-27-2008 8:35 PM randman has responded
 Message 11 by Coyote, posted 01-27-2008 8:36 PM randman has responded
 Message 14 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-27-2008 8:58 PM randman has responded
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 2043 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 10 of 305 (451478)
01-27-2008 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
01-27-2008 8:17 PM


What the ID camp wants is covered quite well. You will find it at this site.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

You can also read the entire court transcript and the judgement.

http://www.aclupa.org/legal/legaldocket/intelligentdesigncase/dovertrialtranscripts.htm

I know it appears to be a bare link, but the case is so well known that I don't feel that summarising it here will help. I'm supplying the link for information only, rather than colouring the issue with my own opinions.

Edited by Trixie, : Edited to provide link to transcripts


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 443 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 11 of 305 (451480)
01-27-2008 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
01-27-2008 8:17 PM


Re: critical thinking skills
quote:
I think the ID camp wants students to develop critical thinking skills and so wants both ID and evo theories to be taught and examined critically. Frankly, I cannot fathom why anyone wanting students to be educated would balk at, for example, teaching criticisms of evo theory.

The "criticisms" they want taught do not represent ongoing debate within the various fields of evolution as conducted, for example, in peer-reviewed technical journals.

Rather, the "criticisms" are those found on websites such as Answers in Genesis and the like, or pushed by the Discovery Institute. The "criticisms" are clearly based on religion, not on science.

I had a seminar near the end of my grad school days titled Problems in Evolution. Not one of the problems discussed were of the sort found on the creationist websites or pushed as "critical thinking."

"Critical thinking" seems to be a code word for teaching religious belief in science classes. The funny thing though--if one were to apply critical thinking skills to such religious beliefs, one would be called an anti-religious bigot, or worse. From what I have seen, proponents of "critical thinking" want their beliefs taught as fact or truth (i.e., divine revelation), and they don't want them to be subject to challenge.

Edited by Coyote, : Typo


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3236 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 12 of 305 (451483)
01-27-2008 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Coyote
01-27-2008 8:36 PM


Re: critical thinking skills
The "criticisms" they want taught do not represent ongoing debate within the various fields of evolution as conducted, for example, in peer-reviewed technical journals.

I disagree. In fact, there are more, albeit few, ID papers discussing the tenets and ideas related to ID than there have been validating the basic tenets and assumptions of The Theory of Evolution. Admittedly, part of that is Darwinism was largely accepted outside the peer-review process as we understand it today.

Nevertheless, there is quite a bit of publication related to ID, both in biology and other fields, as ID stretches past just biology.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3236 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 305 (451484)
01-27-2008 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Trixie
01-27-2008 8:35 PM


you prove my case
Evos have resorted to the courts to silence criticism of their theory. Btw, Dover really settled nothing because the judge, obviously biased, just copied and pasted his ruling complete with typos from evo advocates. It was a sham and is viewed that way by everyone that isn't an evo.

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 2332
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 14 of 305 (451493)
01-27-2008 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by randman
01-27-2008 8:17 PM


Re: critical thinking skills
randman writes:

I think the ID camp wants students to develop critical thinking skills and so wants both ID and evo theories to be taught and examined critically. Frankly, I cannot fathom why anyone wanting students to be educated would balk at, for example, teaching criticisms of evo theory.

I agree that students should be taught to think critically, especially when studying scientific theories. Science education in this country clearly is not succeeding in teaching students to understand the difference between science and pseudoscience or the definition of a scientific theory.

I have seen no coherent ID theory put forward that can be critically examined.

I have not seen anyone balk at the critical examination of the Theory of Evolution. Biologists and other scientists critically examine the ToE every time they make observations or conduct experiments.

What we DO balk at, is criticisms of strawman versions of evolution being taught as legitimate scientific inquiry. The idea of teaching students (some of whom may someday become scientists themselves) that science or the ToE is flawed or invalid because it has not yet answered ALL questions is absurd.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

You can't build a Time Machine without Weird Optics -- S. Valley


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 Message 9 by randman, posted 01-27-2008 8:17 PM randman has responded

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 15 of 305 (451498)
01-27-2008 9:03 PM


Please Focus on the Topic
Hello all!

This is from the opening post:

So let us try to imagine what America is like 20 years after the creation/ID science curriculum becomes the law of the land.

Please let's keep discussion focused on the topic. Those who view the scenario of this thread favorably should describe the favorable aspects, those who do not should describe the unfavorable aspects. For example, while Dover can provide some hints of the direction such an outcome might take when projected out 20 years, the judge's ruling in the legal case is definitely wandering too far afield, as is the existence of technical literature concerning ID.

Just to be very clear, there are some members with a proclivity for using the slightest excuse to wander off-topic onto their favorite themes, and our reduced moderator team is not equipped to follow them all over the forums continually issuing off-topic warnings. Even worse, leniency is this regard as encouragement to other members to do the same. Please do not overburden the moderator team, or it will be forced to remove such members from the active roles for longer and longer periods, eventually permanently.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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