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Author Topic:   Creationism Bill Passes Oklahoma House
Harlequin
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 20 (88693)
02-25-2004 9:01 PM


A bill requiring the Alabama anti-evolution dislaimer be inserted in Oklahoma textbook has passed the Oklahoma House 96-0 and now is headed to the Senate. It also has a measure similiar to a bill defeated earlier this year which would allow local districts to buy textbooks not on the state approved list. Both these measure where inserted into a bill for Braille instruction by rabid creationist/fundamentalist Rep. Bill Graves.
Newspaper article on it
Text of the bill
List of OK senators
Find OK representives and senators (Federal and State) by address
Moderated mailing lists for all 50 states for creationism news
Folks, it might be a good time to join the National Center for Science Education
Edited for typo and bad grammar caused by rush job.
[This message has been edited by Harlequin, 02-25-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Cthulhu, posted 02-25-2004 9:37 PM Harlequin has not replied
 Message 4 by Prozacman, posted 02-27-2004 10:43 AM Harlequin has not replied
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 02-28-2004 5:34 PM Harlequin has replied

  
Harlequin
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 20 (88867)
02-26-2004 3:18 PM


The National Center for Science Education has a story on this. It can be found here. It includes a links to a number of resource including rebuttals by Miller and Dawkins.

  
Harlequin
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 20 (89316)
02-28-2004 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Silent H
02-28-2004 5:34 PM


You can't sue the state legislature for libel.
1) The state legislature makes the libel laws and the legislative process is generally excempt from that for good reason. Besides if passed it would be a law.
2) Who is being libeled? Evolution can't sue. I don't see any statement which would libel the textbook writers. As the disclaimer is aimed at the textbooks, the teachers are not the target.
3) Libel generally requires three things: 1) The statement being false. (Clearly the case here.) 2) The person making the actionable statement knowing its false. (Very arguably false.) 3) The statement actually harmed the reputation, finances, etc. of the person defamed. (Unlikely.)
"Microevolution" is not really a fake term since real scientist really do use the term though real scientist use it differently from how the creationists do.
I will assume the Branch of Information is a joke...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Silent H, posted 02-28-2004 5:34 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 02-28-2004 11:51 PM Harlequin has replied

  
Harlequin
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 20 (89489)
03-01-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Silent H
02-28-2004 11:51 PM


quote:
I think maybe there should be an independent organization free of partisan policy demands (meaning they can't be dismissed for not toeing party lines), who prepare an objective collection of information on whatever subject congress or the president needs to look at.
That is really wishful thinking. How are you going to pick them? And who are they going to answer to? If they don't answer to government and are given real power then it is likely that they will start playing politics themselves and even if they don't then it would be of very questionable constitionality. Though the General Accounting Office has some similiarity to what you looking for except it has no real power and thus is easily ignored.
quote:
And as far as losing finances, wait until this stickering starts acting more as a scarlet letter and those in charge of choosing books are instructed not to waste state money by buying books that will need stickering.
That will usually be done by the publisher itself and it is a trivial cost. And if they don't do it; it is fairly trivial for the teacher, who is not paid by the hour, to do it. At worst the teacher will have a 120 books to do. I don't see any legal case for damages even if one could get damages for losses due to idiotic laws.
quote:
Paranoid? Maybe. But anyone telling me OK would be stickering textbooks with lies about evolution 5 years ago and I would have said they were paranoid
Well it is not law yet. Though frankly I as surprised it did not make it to law years ago. There is no state in the Union with a higher rate of fundamentalism: Oklahoma is the undisputed buckle of the Bible Belt. The Oklahoman and the Gaylords strong opposition to evolution education does not help. There has been a long history of trying to get it into Oklahoma. In 1999 during the Kansas fiasco, the Oklahoma Textbook Committee ordered the disclaimer. The Attorney General struck it down on grounds that the Committee lacked the authority and had also violated the state's Open Meetings Act. There was shortly aftwords a failed attempt to give the Committee the needed authority. Since then there has been multiple attempts to get the disclaimer into law directly. Last year it was proposed as a bill by Rep. Graves but died in committee largely because the Chair of the education committee opposed it.
And recall that with a few minor word changes that the disclaimer has existed as an accomplished reality in Alabama for far longer than five years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Silent H, posted 02-28-2004 11:51 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 03-01-2004 1:42 AM Harlequin has replied

  
Harlequin
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 20 (89689)
03-01-2004 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Silent H
03-01-2004 1:42 AM


quote:
I am curious though what you feel would be so problematic in making sure the information used in policy formulation has been accurately fact-checked...
I suggest you reread what I actually wrote. There is no way you can get anything remotely like that from anything that I wrote.
quote:
like say religious theorists do not get to tell congress what scientists think, say, and have discovered.
That would require an outright repeal of the First Amendment.
Religous theorists have every right to tell Congress what they think scientists think. Scientists also have the right to tell Congress what they think. It does not take a genius to figure out which is mroe credible.
quote:
The FCC has that kind of power and is not easily ignored. So does the FBI and CIA... not easily ignored.
Not really. The FBI and the CIA are not independent and have no power not granted by the President and the Congress.
quote:
Any printing cost addition to a publisher is a cost. Any forced disclaimer (especially a false one) reduces its credibility. Any loss of sales is a loss. Maybe it ends up not being much? I have no idea. But if it does, then why not?
Any printing cost is a cost. But that cost is very small compared to the profit being made for the sale of the book. The cost of the disclaimer is a complete non-issue. And how is the disclaimer supposed to cause a loss of sales? Every single biology textbook approved by the Textbook Committee will have to carry this disclaimer. No creationist books are approved. And students don't get a choice; the government is buying and choosing the books and
they are the ones that would require the disclaimer. Indeed the
Textbook Committee, the organization that approves textbooks in Oklahoma, officially wanted the disclaimer but was stopped by the Attorney General.
(Now what would cost the publishers money is the seperate provision allowing local districts to use state money to buy unapproved books. Clearly is to allow them buy quack books. If local politicians want to buy creationists books I don't see how whether or not a book has a disclaimer will affect it either way. Of course no one gets to sue for financial damgages over how the state chooses to spend its money for a competitor's product.)
quote:
quote:
And recall that with a few minor word changes that the disclaimer has existed as an accomplished reality in Alabama for far longer than five years.
And this means what? If you feel it has had no effect in AL, then what are you complaining about if it goes to OK?
Reread what I actually wrote and keep in mind the context.
You stated that five years ago that you would not though such a disclaimer likely. I am arguing that five years ago you should not have thought that. To point out that disclaimer was already under official use for several years at that time in another state would make the idea of thinking such a disclaimer unlikely rather silly.
When the Kansas flared up almost five years ago; the surpring part was that it was Kansas and not Oklahoma. The moment I heard about Kansas, I knew that Oklahoma would soon join the firestorm. And it did.
If you think that I in any way approve of the Alabama disclaimer whether it be in Alabama or Oklahoma than you better do some serious rereading.
To point out that something does not even remotely meet the criteria for the legal concept of "libel" does not in any way mean approval or validity. That disclaimer makes many claims which are outright false. It also uses scientific terminology incorrectly. Thus it is clear it has no legit educational function. The legislature failed to do any fact finding (the ammendment was added with stealth almost the very day the bill was voted on by the House) that one would expect for such a measure. That it is clearly motivated for purely religious reasons without any secular justification makes it clearly unconstitutional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Silent H, posted 03-01-2004 1:42 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Silent H, posted 03-02-2004 12:27 PM Harlequin has not replied

  
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