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Author Topic:   Humans walked with dinosaurs
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 108 (282261)
01-28-2006 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
01-28-2006 3:24 PM


The rest of the evidence, eh?
For me, the evidence discussed in this article
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/paluxy/tsite.html
is more than sufficient to totally discredit the Paluxy claims in their entirety:
That dinosaurs were capable of making elongated impressions by impressing their metatarsi into the sediment was confirmed by my documentation in 1982 and 1983 of another Paluxy site, bordering the Alfred West property, about a mile south of Dinosaur Valley State Park. On the West Site are many typical tridactyl tracks, and several trails composed primarily of elongated dinosaur tracks. Some of the trails with elongated tracks also contain some non-elongated and partially elongated dinosaur tracks, apparently indicating that the dinosaur would sometimes alter the extent to which it impressed its metatarsi into the sediment. The clarity of the individual tracks also varied greatly, especially in the region of the digits. Many of the elongated tracks showed three distinct dinosaurian digits, as well as a posterior extension with rounded "heel."
That the "elongated" tracks match the Paluxy tracks in size and shape, and neighborhood and time period, means that there is an explanation for the tracks that does not require the hypothesis that strange large footed human like creatures were responsible - creatures for which there is absolutely no evidence of any kind.
We can see obviously dinosaur tracks becoming "paluxy" type tracks and back to dinosaur type tracks in several different trails, and thus no other explanation (than that the makers were dinosaurs) is necessary to explain the Paluxy tracks.
To then conclude that the makers must be "human" (while ignoring the lack of any other evidence of even vaguely humanoid (large) footed creatures - whether dinosaur or mammal or whatever - occupying that area and time is a logically unfounded conclusion of the worst kind.
To continue to espouse such a position in order to make money (through the "museum") after this has been refuted by the evidence above, is clearly self-serving hucksterism of a pernicious if not malicious kind.
Enjoy
corrected "non-elongated" to "elongated" above.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 01*29*2006 09:29 PM

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 33 of 108 (285955)
02-12-2006 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Gary
02-11-2006 12:21 AM


Re: Footprint looks fake to me
You can also compare the footprints to the ones at Laetoli:
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/laetoli.htm
Roughly three and three-quarter million years ago, a volcano erupted in what is now northern Tanzania, blanketing the landscape with volcanic ash. Rain fell, causing the ashy surface to take on the properties of plaster, and across this ground numerous animals walked, leaving their footprints in the wet volcanic ash to be preserved as it turned into a hard cement. One of the creatures that passed across this landscape 3.6 million years ago was a member of the early human species Australopithecus afarensis. In fact, at least two individuals were present, walking along side each other.
The importance of the fossil footprints at Laetoli cannot be overstated. They demonstrate incontrovertibly that 3.6 million years ago, early humans were bipedal (walking upright on two legs). Their big toes hardly diverged from the rest of the foot, this can be seen in the photograph at the top right of the imprint. In comparison, a chimpanzee has a highly diverged big toe, and is able to use it like a thumb. Additionally, it is pssoible to tell that the gait of these early humans was "heel-strike" (the heel of the foot hit first) followed by "toe-off" (the toes push off at the end of the stride); the way modern humans walk.
(typo in the original)
Also note: "The photograph of the Laetoli footprint has been provided to the Smithsonian Institution by John Reader, and is used here with his consent. Please note that this image is the copyrighted material of Mr. Reader, and cannot be used or reproduced without his consent."
So you will need to go to the link to see the photo.
This footprint - and all the others in the tracks made by these two individuals show these characteristic impressions, rather than the "flat" footprint in the "museum"
Enjoy.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 48 of 108 (296401)
03-17-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by knitrofreak
03-16-2006 12:47 AM


Re: on the creation side...
Welcome to the fray, knitrofreak.
... I believe that Adam and Eve and others walked with the dinosaurs.
This is a science forum thread, which means that evidence is needed when assertions are challenged. How do you explain the absence of any human (or for that matter ape (or for that matter monkey)) fossils in layers that have (not bird) dinosaur fossils AND the absence of any (not bird) dinosaur fossils in layers that have human (or for that matter ape (or for that matter monkey)) fossils?
We're talking real certified and properly documented fossils, not creatortionista conflations.
How do you explain the separation of layers with (not bird) dinosaur fossils and layers with human (or for that matter ape (or for that matter monkey)) fossils by a layer with extraodinary high iridium levels (a rare earth element but common in meteors) that is found around the world at strata levels that consistently date to ~65 million years ago (and by a number of different methods)?
IE: not only are the layers with these various fossils just different layers, but all (not bird) dinosaur fossils are below this iridium layer and all human (or for that matter ape (or for that matter monkey)) fossils are above this iridium layer?
My thought on how they became extinct is when the flood happened.
I'm wondering how much you have (really) thought about this? Have you tested this concept by seeing how it compares to the {fossils\data\evidence} that is available, particularly on the rate and timing of extinction events?
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by knitrofreak, posted 03-16-2006 12:47 AM knitrofreak has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 63 of 108 (296743)
03-20-2006 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by knitrofreak
03-20-2006 12:10 AM


Re: on the creation side...
Ok first i havent looked closely at the fossil record but ...
So you are making assumptions based on a lack of information.
I dont believe that the fossil record is in chronological order.
Feel free to believe that the sun orbits the earth. What you believe is irrelevant to the issue of what the evidence shows. To maintain this position in a discussion on a science forum thread you are going to have to provide some kind of evidence for this position, just believing it is not enough.
Layers could have been shifted up and down to jumble things a bit.
And geologists have been able to determine where and when that has happened, they have sorted it out based on the evidence of the layers before radiometric dating became available. Radiometric dating confirmed the age relationships of the layers.
Like i said its been a while since i was in biology
This is actually geology and paleontology rather than biology.
If you want to talk about methods of dating the ages of things you can read {Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part III}
http://EvC Forum: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III)
As a starting point.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by knitrofreak, posted 03-20-2006 12:10 AM knitrofreak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by knitrofreak, posted 03-25-2006 12:53 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 66 of 108 (297232)
03-22-2006 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by knitrofreak
03-21-2006 12:34 AM


Re: dating dissagreement
Please cite your creatortionista website so we can all chukle at it.
Different Dating Techniques Should Consistently Agree but dont.
"In Australia, some wood found the Tertiary basalt was clearly buried in the lava flow that formed the basalt, as can be seen from the charring. The wood was "dated" by radiocarbon (14C) analysis at about 45,000 years old, but the basalt was "dated" by potassium-argon method at 45 million years old![19]"
All this displays is your ignorance of what dating methods can and cannot do. As Ned noted you can start remedial classes at the Age Correelations thread. See you there or recant.
Radiocarbon dating has a limit of 50,000 years. This means that it is impossible to date something with radiocarbon dating to 45 million years. In other words this was done intentionally to misrepresent dating techniques by someone who absolutely knew that no "agreement" was possible between the two techniques in this situation.
Radiocarbon dating is also subject to interference from radioactivity from other sources causing a reversal of 14C decay, which can result in false "young" dates. This has been demonstrated in oil, coal and old wood samples.
Also after Mount St Helens Erupted they used some kind of dating to test the rock and it was way off, like 1,000s of yrs old give or take. This really goes to say really how accurate is radiometric dating and other kinds of dateing are.
No, what this shows is how unscrupulous certain people are at intentionally misrepresenting data. All you need is enough knowledge to know what can produce false readings, and then go look for instances of them to then present to ignorant people as "proof" that errors are possible. This is not science, it is not honesty, it is shinola.
Do you like being mislead? Read the other thread and learn something.
msg63 writes:
This is actually geology and paleontology rather than biology.
If you want to talk about methods of dating the ages of things you can read {Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part III}
http://EvC Forum: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III)
Replying or continuing this discussion here is OFF TOPIC and needs to be taken to the thread given to discuss further.
Enjoy.
{abe} link and OT notice {/abe}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*22*2006 07:52 AM

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 69 of 108 (298287)
03-26-2006 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by knitrofreak
03-25-2006 12:53 AM


Re: on the creation side...
msg 67 writes:
There is no evidence for neo darwinistic evolution.
One question here is do you mean the specific subset of evolution sometimes refered to as neo-darwinism and sometimes as the modern evolutionary systhesis or are just using a term found on a website?
Modern synthesis - Wikipedia
"The major tenets of the evolutionary synthesis, then, were that populations contain genetic variation that arises by random (ie. not adaptively directed) mutation and recombination; that populations evolve by changes in gene frequency brought about by random genetic drift, gene flow, and especially natural selection; that most adaptive genetic variants have individually slight phenotypic effects so that phenotypic changes are gradual (although some alleles with discrete effects may be advantageous, as in certain color polymorphisms); that diversification comes about by speciation, which normally entails the gradual evolution of reproductive isolation among populations; and that these processes, continued for sufficiently long, give rise to changes of such great magnitude as to warrant the designation of higher taxonomic levels (genera, families, and so forth)..."
” Futuyma, D.J. in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates, 1986; p.12
Certainly there is evidence of this having happened, there are many scientific papers that detail instances of each of these elements.
To claim that there is NO evidence is either to assert a belief from a background of ignorance or to deny the evidence that contradicts the belief.
The first has already been demonstrated:
RAZD, msg 63 writes:
(knitrofreak, msg 57) writes:
Ok first i havent looked closely at the fossil record but ...
So you are making assumptions based on a lack of information.
Ignorance can be cured with learning, denial is a different matter. Those who deny evidence that does exist remain ignorant willfully, by choice. Denial of evidence in order to support a belief is the kind of thing needed to believe that the sun orbits the earth. Denial of evidence is NOT needed however to believe (whether based on information you have been given but have not personally verified or not) that the earth orbits the sun (actually a center of mass of the solar system near the center of the sun).
Denial of evidence then is the key to seeing how valid a belief system is: the more denial that is required the less valid the system.
msg67 writes:
I was refering to what I had learned in Biology about the fossil record. Our school doesnt have alot of class choice
Just to be clear, biology in general and evolution in specific does not need nor rely on the fossil record for evidence that the theories involved are valid. The paragraph quoted above makes no reference to the fossil record. Rather the fossil record is secondary evidence - various predictions can be made from the theories of evolution for what we should see in the fossil record - we do see them - and what we should NOT see in the fossil record - we do not see them - so the amount of fossil evidence - and any "lack" of certain "transitionals" - is irrelevant. Any perceived absence in the fossil record is NOT evidence that evolution is falsified or incomplete.
The question here (on this topic) is whether there is evidence of co-existence of humans and (large non-bird) dinosaurs, and there is no such evidence that stands up to scrutiny (ie is not a hoax).
This is consistent with evolution, but not necessary.
This is inconsistent - and necessary - for a YEC fundamentalist belief.
Enjoy.
ps - As a final point, "neo darwinistic evolution" is only one theory of evolution.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*26*2006 01:28 PM
This message has been edited by RAZD, 03*26*2006 01:31 PM

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by knitrofreak, posted 03-25-2006 12:53 AM knitrofreak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by knitrofreak, posted 03-26-2006 5:46 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 77 of 108 (298444)
03-26-2006 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by knitrofreak
03-26-2006 5:46 PM


Re: on the creation side... nothing.
Okay, lets recap on the topic issues.
In your first post you said:
knitrofreak, msg 44 writes:
God created every kind of all the animals at one time, also humans were created then too. So according to the Bible I believe that Adam and Eve and others walked with the dinosaurs. My thought on how they became extinct is when the flood happened.
When confronted with the evidence of layers in the geological record not supporting this view you said:
knitrofreak, msg 57 writes:
Ok first i havent looked closely at the fossil record but just because they arent in the same layer doesnt meant they didnt die at the same time. I dont believe that the fossil record is in chronological order. Layers could have been shifted up and down to jumble things a bit. Like i said its been a while since i was in biology
You acknowledged that you had not "looked closely" at the things you asserted in your post, and then proceeded to make another similar assertion on the chronology. This too was challenged, with a (proper) thread provided to pursue this matter, but so far this has not been attemped.
(http://EvC Forum: Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Version 1 No 3 (formerly Part III))
Whereupon you made another post:
knitrofreak, msg 67 writes:
"Feel free to believe that the sun orbits the earth. What you believe is irrelevant to the issue of what the evidence shows."
Exactly. There is no evidence for neo darwinistic evolution.
And now when that assertion is challenged you post:
Yes thanks for saying that. I guess I shouldnt be so dogmatic about there isnt evidence for evolution even though I still dont believe it.
It appears that you have a pattern of making unsubstantiated and unsupportable assertions that are based on nothing more than your belief, and making no effort to determine their validity before making the assertions.
As far as your belief goes, I again repeat that you are free to believe whatever you want - that the sun orbits the earth and that the earth is only 6000 years old - the real question is what evidence you deny as true to maintain that belief, or whether you are ready to accept facts that contradict your beliefs.
Just because they say it it in Scientific Journals doenst make it true.
Of course not. But when {experiments\predictions\results} are {validated\repeated\confirmed} by other scientists then it becomes rather impertinent to hand-wave the results away, especially without doing any studies that show how the results are wrong. This is what the scientific process is about -- eliminating mistakes step by step as more information is aquired.
In my biology textbook last year they were putting lots of things that have been proven untrue.
That doesn't surprise me in the slightest for three reasons:
(1) High School biology textbooks are known to contain errors in part due to publication problems and in part due to influence on the publishers from non-scientists (parents, politicians),
(2) Science marches onward, so things that were theorized before as the best explanation get invalidated, and new theories arise to explain the changes (this is how relativity replaced newtonian physics), as theories can ONLY be shown false and never "proved" and
(3) I suspect that the "lots" is another of your assertions based on your beliefs and that a number of these things if listed would be shown as valid.
Certainly it saddens me that our schools present false information to our students, but this is off-topic here.
This would actually make a wonderful thread topic (Randman tried something like it, but didn't have a textbook to use for a source of published errors). If you still have your textbook you could start a topic taking these items one by one. I'm sure that if you call it "Biology Textbook Errors" - and keep it to one (perceived) error at a time - that the admins will promote it (Is It Science would be the appropriate forum eh?).
I was just saying there is no evidence that one animal turned completely into another. Scientists have been bombarding fruit flys with radiation for years and what do they get. A different type of fly or insect? NO just more mutatated messed up fruit flys.
Oh dear. Another PRATT. This is really getting off-topic here too (Humans walked with dinosaurs). I'm sure this has been addressed previously on this forum on other threads - perhaps one of the admins can find a good fit for further discussion.
Speciation has been observed outside the labs. See the {Imported weed diversification supports macro-evolution} for and example of speciation (but not "macro"evolution as claimed):
http://EvC Forum: Imported weed diversification supports macro-evolution
To sum up:
No substantiated evidence that humans walked with dinosaurs has been presented yet on this thread.
The {geological\paleontological} evidence that this did NOT happen has not been addressed in any way that would invalidate the logical conclusion that all (large non-bird) dinosaurs died out well before any humans (or for that matter apes (or for that matter monkeys)) existed on this earth.
This is NOT a matter involving evolution, per se, but the geological and fossil evidence.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by knitrofreak, posted 03-26-2006 5:46 PM knitrofreak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Coragyps, posted 03-26-2006 10:13 PM RAZD has not replied
 Message 81 by knitrofreak, posted 03-27-2006 12:44 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 83 of 108 (298543)
03-27-2006 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by knitrofreak
03-27-2006 12:37 AM


Another possible new topic
Its great stuff and will test what you believe.
Again this is material for another thread. Each "question" could be taken one at a time.
This topic is humans walked with dinosaurs, so it needs to involve
Humans
Dinosaurs
Coexistence
Anything without those elements is off-topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by knitrofreak, posted 03-27-2006 12:37 AM knitrofreak has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 84 of 108 (298544)
03-27-2006 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by knitrofreak
03-27-2006 12:44 AM


New Topics Needed -- NOT Here.
I would also like to apoligize for some of the statements that I have made. I would like to start fresh and forget all I said and try to have more EVIDENCE because YES that is what determines this stuff.
But you did it again:
Ok so tell me how evolution can be repeated if it takes such a long time to happen or so fast you cant see it(puncutated equillibrium). Evolution does not fall in the the science category: repeatable, testable or observable.
This is off-topic here, as it doesn't involve the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs.
If you want to discuss evolution this needs to be on another thread.
Note that changing the topic is a classic dodge in the book of creatortionista shuck-and-jive, "How to reply to Evolution without answering the questions"
So, I look forward to three new topics from you:
Biology Textbook Errors
Challenging Questions for Evolutionists
Evolution: Repeatable, Testable, Observable?
I think these are all good topics, and should provide plenty of material to debate with substantiated answers.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 90 of 108 (298852)
03-27-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by knitrofreak
03-27-2006 10:23 PM


Re: Fine but still OFFTOPIC.
Yes he is. Would it matter if he wasn't? No.
This is still off-topic. Perhaps it needs to be closed for a while if we can't get back on:
humans
dinosaurs
coexistence
something relevant to the evidence against this having happened.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by knitrofreak, posted 03-27-2006 10:23 PM knitrofreak has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by knitrofreak, posted 03-27-2006 10:45 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 108 (298863)
03-27-2006 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by jar
03-27-2006 11:00 PM


Re: Most Christian Churches accept Evolution.
Great.
Can we take this discussion to the Clergy Project Thread?
http://EvC Forum: The Clergy Project -->EvC Forum: The Clergy Project

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 03-27-2006 11:00 PM jar has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 96 of 108 (299134)
03-28-2006 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by knitrofreak
03-27-2006 10:45 PM


New topics are easy.
I wish there was an all purpose forum for evolution creation
This is, you just need to formulate the topic for what you want to discuss. As noted above you have posted three things so far that could make good topics for discussion.
All you need to do is take any one of them (I suggest starting with only one so you don't get overwhelmed) and post it in the {POST NEW TOPICS} forum.
Keep it simple - for instance if you want to do the "evolutionist challenge" topic take it one question at a time the way jar is taking the grand canyon one layer at a time.
Look at Christian's thread {Evolutionary Chain} as an example of a simple question and sticking to the point (mostly).
You get out of it what you put into it. If you have your emial notification set you will get notifications of all posts on the threads you start (pro and con and offtopic).
Enjoy.

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