Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Alas, poor Ohio .... EvC related news
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 179 (117006)
06-21-2004 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by nator
06-20-2004 2:18 PM


Re: Evolving Views
Hi Schrafinator
Based upon your message, it is obvious that you have misunderstood what it is I have said. I shall endeavor to explain in a manner that is less confusing.
schrafinator writes:
Why do you conclude that our lack of knowledge about how honeybees make honeycomb means that an Intelligent Designer must have done it?
I do not recall ever stating that as a conclusion that I have reached, though I can not, in good conscience, rule it out as a distinct possibility, however improbable it may seem.
schrafinator writes:
How do you tell the difference between an Intelligently Designed system and a natural one we don't understand now, or may never understand?
I propose that we can not. Were we able to do so, this forum would serve little purpose, for me at least.
schrafinator writes:
Is the honeybee's construction of honeycomb the only specific example of what you see as ID?
On the contrary, I acknowledge patterns, designs, and intelligent designs in nearly every aspect of life, here on earth and throughout the universe.
schrafinator writes:
Surely you didn't give up on science just because of a single, solitary gap in our knowledge, did you?
I am unsure of where you got the idea that I have given up on science. Science is a necessary tool that must be used if we are to broaden our understanding, and increase our knowledge of all things within our universe.
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by nator, posted 06-20-2004 2:18 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by NosyNed, posted 06-21-2004 2:37 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 138 by nator, posted 06-21-2004 9:48 AM DarkStar has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 137 of 179 (117011)
06-21-2004 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by DarkStar
06-21-2004 2:07 AM


A politician
Just what office are you running for?
That is as good a set of contentless non-answers as anyone has managed to produce in any of the electoral races going on. Why bother typing if you have nothing whatsoever to say?
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 06-21-2004 01:37 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 2:07 AM DarkStar has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 138 of 179 (117070)
06-21-2004 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by DarkStar
06-21-2004 2:07 AM


Re: Evolving Views
quote:
On the contrary, I acknowledge patterns, designs, and intelligent designs in nearly every aspect of life, here on earth and throughout the universe.
List them.
Be specific.
quote:
I am unsure of where you got the idea that I have given up on science. Science is a necessary tool that must be used if we are to broaden our understanding, and increase our knowledge of all things within our universe.
But don't you have a long list of "intelligent designs in nearly every aspect of life, here on earth and throughout the universe"?
Science is the process of understanding naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena.
If this long list of "aspects of life" has been Intelligently Designed, trying to figure out their naturalistic explanations is pointless, because, by definition, you somehow know that there is no naturalistic explanation, right?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-21-2004 08:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 2:07 AM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 2:22 PM nator has replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 179 (117155)
06-21-2004 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by nator
06-21-2004 9:48 AM


Re: Evolving Views
schrafinator writes:
Science is the process of understanding naturalistic explanations for natural phenomena.
DarkStar offers:
Science:
[Lat. scientia]. For many the term science refers to the organized body of knowledge concerning the physical world, both animate and inanimate, but a proper definition would also have to include the attitudes and methods through which this body of knowledge is formed; thus, a science is both a particular kind of activity and also the results of that activity.

Previous DarkStar quote:

On the contrary, I acknowledge patterns, designs, and intelligent designs in nearly every aspect of life, here on earth and throughout the universe.
schrafinator writes:
List them.
Be specific.
Obstinate behaviour and attitude will get you nowhere with me. Are you suggesting that you see no patterns in nature? Are you suggesting that you see absolutely no evidence of design in the universe? No designs anywhere that are intelligent in their construct?
Are seasons an example of a steady pattern in nature or do they just randomly change, keeping no order? Are the orbits of the planets in our solar system an example of a working design or do they make abrupt and random changes, resulting in the deterioration and instability of life on our planet? The answers are obvious.
schrafinator writes:
If this long list of "aspects of life" has been Intelligently Designed, trying to figure out their naturalistic explanations is pointless, because, by definition, you somehow know that there is no naturalistic explanation, right?
You are absolutely right. Naturalistic explanations would be pointless under such a scenario. However, I have never described the patterns, designs, and intelligent designs, which are so apparent in nature, as being the product of an intelligent designer rather than naturalistic forces. Please do not attempt to put words into my mouth. I am fully capable of speaking for myself, and of expressing my own opinions on these matters.
Whether an entity simply has the appearance of having been intelligently designed when in actuality it is the result of natural phenomena is an arena I leave to the scientists. Whether an entity shows obvious indications of being an intelligent design is well within my expertise, as I have at my disposal the natural senses with which I was born.
I can look at nearly every aspect of life and discover this, however I have no intention of offering you an endless list. I can look at a honeycomb and see the intelligence inherent in it's design. I can look at a spider web and see the intelligence inherent in it's design. I can look a a mussel that, though without sight, has the ability to exactly mimic shiners, which includes not only their size but also their color, in order to attract bass fish which it uses for propagation purposes. That is one hell of an intelligent design, at least it is so in my humble opinion.
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by nator, posted 06-21-2004 9:48 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by contracycle, posted 06-22-2004 6:32 AM DarkStar has replied
 Message 143 by Bonobojones, posted 06-22-2004 5:21 PM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 148 by MrHambre, posted 06-23-2004 10:53 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 149 by nator, posted 06-25-2004 10:37 AM DarkStar has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 140 of 179 (117432)
06-22-2004 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by DarkStar
06-21-2004 2:22 PM


Re: Evolving Views
quote:
Obstinate behaviour and attitude will get you nowhere with me. Are you suggesting that you see no patterns in nature? Are you suggesting that you see absolutely no evidence of design in the universe? No designs anywhere that are intelligent in their construct?
I can safely say, none whatsoever. I find the idea that the universe is a "designed" phenomoenon quite perplexing - what is it that makes you think it IS designed, and why? Why would anyone think that?
quote:
Are the orbits of the planets in our solar system an example of a working design or do they make abrupt and random changes, resulting in the deterioration and instability of life on our planet?
Thats nuts; why wouldn't they? Design is not required for orbits to be stable.
This message has been edited by contracycle, 06-22-2004 05:33 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 2:22 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by DarkStar, posted 06-22-2004 11:39 AM contracycle has replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 179 (117498)
06-22-2004 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by contracycle
06-22-2004 6:32 AM


Re: Evolving Views
DS writes:
Are you suggesting that you see no patterns in nature? Are you suggesting that you see absolutely no evidence of design in the universe? No designs anywhere that are intelligent in their construct?
contracycle:I can safely say, none whatsoever. I find the idea that the universe is a "designed" phenomoenon quite perplexing - what is it that makes you think it IS designed, and why? Why would anyone think that?
I think the more important question here is why would you so close your mind to other possibilities that you would not consider it a probability, however remote? We are not talking about design theory here, only about design and the appearance of design.
DS writes:
Are the orbits of the planets in our solar system an example of a working design or do they make abrupt and random changes, resulting in the deterioration and instability of life on our planet?
contracycle:Thats nuts; why wouldn't they? Design is not required for orbits to be stable.
So then, is it your understanding that the distance between the planets, their moon(s), and the sun is irrelevant to the stability of orbits?
Cheers

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by contracycle, posted 06-22-2004 6:32 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by contracycle, posted 06-22-2004 11:55 AM DarkStar has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 179 (117504)
06-22-2004 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by DarkStar
06-22-2004 11:39 AM


Re: Evolving Views
quote:
I think the more important question here is why would you so close your mind to other possibilities that you would not consider it a probability, however remote?
Because there is not the slightest reason to go that direction.
As I said, I see no evidence of design in nature, none whatsoever. Thats just how I experience it. As you said, we are only talking about the appearance of design... where is it?
quote:
So then, is it your understanding that the distance between the planets, their moon(s), and the sun is irrelevant to the stability of orbits?
No, they directly relevant. But, what has that got to do with DESIGN?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by DarkStar, posted 06-22-2004 11:39 AM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by DarkStar, posted 06-22-2004 9:25 PM contracycle has replied

  
Bonobojones
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 179 (117587)
06-22-2004 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by DarkStar
06-21-2004 2:22 PM


Re: Evolving Views
DS. Could you please answer the question? I'd like to know, OK?

Reunite Gondwana!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 2:22 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 179 (117673)
06-22-2004 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by contracycle
06-22-2004 11:55 AM


Re: Evolving Views
DS quote: I think the more important question here is why would you so close your mind to other possibilities that you would not consider it a probability, however remote?
cc writes:
Because there is not the slightest reason to go that direction.
As I said, I see no evidence of design in nature, none whatsoever. Thats just how I experience it. As you said, we are only talking about the appearance of design... where is it?
DS quote:
So then, is it your understanding that the distance between the planets, their moon(s), and the sun is irrelevant to the stability of orbits?
cc writes:
No, they directly relevant. But, what has that got to do with DESIGN?
DarkStar replies:
The arrangement, or design, of the planets in their orbits is central to the existance of life on this planet. You may then ask, "how do you know it is by design?", to which I would have to reply, I do not claim that it is "by" design, only that it "is" a design. Evidence of an order necessary for our existance. Can you state emphatically that it is not a design? What evidence can you offer to support your position?

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by contracycle, posted 06-22-2004 11:55 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Coragyps, posted 06-22-2004 9:36 PM DarkStar has replied
 Message 147 by contracycle, posted 06-23-2004 4:53 AM DarkStar has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 145 of 179 (117674)
06-22-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by DarkStar
06-22-2004 9:25 PM


Re: Evolving Views
The arrangement, or design, of the planets in their orbits is central to the existance of life on this planet.
Say what? How does the arrangement of any of the other planets have anything whatsoever to do with how we get along down here? How does the chaotic orbital behavior of Pluto and many of the asteroids enter into this Design?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by DarkStar, posted 06-22-2004 9:25 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by DarkStar, posted 06-22-2004 10:07 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 179 (117679)
06-22-2004 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Coragyps
06-22-2004 9:36 PM


Re: Evolving Views
I answered your questions, why didn't you answer mine?

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Coragyps, posted 06-22-2004 9:36 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 179 (117805)
06-23-2004 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by DarkStar
06-22-2004 9:25 PM


Re: Evolving Views
quote:
DarkStar replies:
The arrangement... of the planets in their orbits is central to the existance of life on this planet.
So what? Please note I have elided the word design from your sentence, as it is not equivalent to "arrangement".
quote:
You may then ask, "how do you know it is by design?", to which I would have to reply, I do not claim that it is "by" design, only that it "is" a design.
Well, how is that a meaningful statement? Does that mean I can refer to a heap of unwashed clothes on the floor as "a design"? How about a pile of leaves? Furthermore, without asserting that these arrangemensts are BY design the argument makes no sense; a "design", when so broadly defined, does not require a "designer".
quote:
Evidence of an order necessary for our existance. Can you state emphatically that it is not a design? What evidence can you offer to support your position?
Yes, I can.
quote:
design ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-zn)
v. designed, designing, designs
v. tr.
To conceive or fashion in the mind; invent: design a good excuse for not attending the conference.
To formulate a plan for; devise: designed a marketing strategy for the new product.
To plan out in systematic, usually graphic form: design a building; design a computer program.
To create or contrive for a particular purpose or effect: a game designed to appeal to all ages.
To have as a goal or purpose; intend.
To create or execute in an artistic or highly skilled manner.
You will note that ALL of these clarifications require deliberate decision making and forethought by a living, intelligent being. Every one of them describes a mental process that prepares for physical action; that is what the term denotes.
There is no evidence of a mental process, of an intent, in the arranegement of the planets. Thus, there is absolutely no evidence of design, and therefore, of a designer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by DarkStar, posted 06-22-2004 9:25 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 148 of 179 (117878)
06-23-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by DarkStar
06-21-2004 2:22 PM


Death the Designer
DarkStar claims,
quote:
I can look a a mussel that, though without sight, has the ability to exactly mimic shiners, which includes not only their size but also their color, in order to attract bass fish which it uses for propagation purposes. That is one hell of an intelligent design, at least it is so in my humble opinion.
Natural selection has the amazing ability to make something look like it's been intelligently designed, when actually the cumulative pruning effect of countless rounds of elimination have produced a mussel that's well adapted in color and size to its environment. That's the way Nature sculpts its creations: one small modification at a time, without intent or foresight, producing impressive designs at the cost of an enormous amount of waste and death. Ask the millions of mussels that didn't make it whether the process is as ingenious as it seems.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 2:22 PM DarkStar has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 149 of 179 (118628)
06-25-2004 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by DarkStar
06-21-2004 2:22 PM


Re: Evolving Views
quote:
Obstinate behaviour and attitude will get you nowhere with me.
Refusing to support your claims will get you nowhere with me.
I am sorry that you object to my minimalist approach, but since multiple requests for you to provide support for your claims failed, I decided to get very specific and unambiguous.
quote:
Are you suggesting that you see no patterns in nature?
No.
I am asking you what patterns in nature you think areintelligently designed and why you believe they are.
Please list them and the evidence you know them to be ID.
quote:
Are you suggesting that you see absolutely no evidence of design in the universe?
No.
I am asking you what patterns in nature you think areintelligently designed and why you believe they are.
Please list them and the evidence you know them to be ID.
quote:
No designs anywhere that are intelligent in their construct?
I am asking you what patterns in nature you think areintelligently designed and why you believe they are.
Please list them and the evidence you know them to be ID.
quote:
Are seasons an example of a steady pattern in nature or do they just randomly change, keeping no order?
Please provide evidence that the seasons are a result of ID.
Please show how all naturalistic explanations of the seasons are false. Please deal especially with the fact of the Earth tilting towards and away from the sun.
quote:
Are the orbits of the planets in our solar system an example of a working design or do they make abrupt and random changes, resulting in the deterioration and instability of life on our planet?
Please provide the evidence that ID is the cause of planetary orbits, including refutations of all the physics and cosmology regarding planetary motion.
quote:
The answers are obvious.
Excellent! I look forward to reading your detailed, specific answers to my requests for detailed, specific evidence for ID!
quote:
You are absolutely right. Naturalistic explanations would be pointless under such a scenario. However, I have never described the patterns, designs, and intelligent designs, which are so apparent in nature, as being the product of an intelligent designer rather than naturalistic forces. Please do not attempt to put words into my mouth. I am fully capable of speaking for myself, and of expressing my own opinions on these matters.
Then do so.
We've all been waiting.
quote:
Whether an entity simply has the appearance of having been intelligently designed when in actuality it is the result of natural phenomena is an arena I leave to the scientists. Whether an entity shows obvious indications of being an intelligent design is well within my expertise, as I have at my disposal the natural senses with which I was born.
List them.
Be specific.
quote:
I can look at nearly every aspect of life and discover this, however I have no intention of offering you an endless list. I can look at a honeycomb and see the intelligence inherent in it's design.
How do you know it is Intelligently Designed and not a result of purely natural processes?
Please explain.
Be specific.
quote:
I can look at a spider web and see the intelligence inherent in it's design.
How do you know it is Intelligently Designed and not a result of purely natural processes?
Please explain.
Be specific.
quote:
I can look a a mussel that, though without sight, has the ability to exactly mimic shiners, which includes not only their size but also their color, in order to attract bass fish which it uses for propagation purposes.
How do you know it is Intelligently Designed and not a result of purely natural processes?
Please explain.
Be specific.
quote:
That is one hell of an intelligent design, at least it is so in my humble opinion.
It's a good thing science doesn't operate via personal opinion, isn't it?
I believe you are succumbing to a fallacy called the "Argument from Personal Incredulity"
divine fallacy (argument from incredulity) - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com
The divine fallacy, or the argument from incredulity, is a species of non sequitur reasoning which goes something like this: I can't figure this out, so God must have done it. Or, This is amazing; therefore, God did it. Or, I can't think of any other explanation; therefore, God did it. Or, this is just too weird; so, God is behind it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by DarkStar, posted 06-21-2004 2:22 PM DarkStar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by DarkStar, posted 06-27-2004 10:01 PM nator has replied

  
DarkStar
Inactive Member


Message 150 of 179 (119316)
06-27-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by nator
06-25-2004 10:37 AM


Somewhere Beyond Logic and Reason...........
I do not see alot of substance in your posts. You ask the same questions over and over, even after having received the answers. Perhaps you would do better to make an attempt at educating me. Please provide for me all the evidence available to you that nothing within the vastness of the entire universe shows any sign of design and/or intelligent design. Also include all evidence at your disposal that shows this intelligent designer you keep talking about could not possibly exist and therefore could not possibly have created anything.
I have concentrated on the patterns, designs, and intelligent designs but you seem fixated on having me give you some sort of evidence for an intelligent designer. So instead of me trying to offer you evidence of something I have not claimed, that being an intelligent designer, would you please provide for me the evidence that you have that an intelligent designer can not possibly exist and then once we have moved beyond that overwhelming evidence that you surely must have at your disposal, we can concentrate on the subject I was talking about.
I wonder whether you will attempt to supply me with the evidence, as it seems that a number of people in this forum have succumbed to what I like to call the "Dumbing Down Syndrome", which states, "My mind can not figure out this wonderfully amazing world in which I live. I can not possibly accept any other explanation due to the fact that a higher degree of logic and reason would bring me to a place that is just too deep for my limited concept of the universe so.......
evolution has to be the answer,
evolution has to be the answer,
evolution has to be the answer"
You are definitely not in Kansas anymore but the real question is, where are you and how close is it to the Twilight Zone?

BREATHE DEEP THE GATHERING GLOOM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by nator, posted 06-25-2004 10:37 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by contracycle, posted 06-28-2004 7:10 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 152 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2004 8:00 AM DarkStar has not replied
 Message 153 by nator, posted 06-28-2004 10:05 AM DarkStar has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024