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Author Topic:   The Academic Bill of Rights
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 106 of 178 (216035)
06-10-2005 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Chiroptera
06-10-2005 9:48 AM


There is nothing about quotas or preferential hiring
The ABOR assiduously avoids anything close to a demand for quotas or preferential hiring. Read it, you will see what I mean. You might alos be interested to know that Horowitz wrote it with input from a few well known leftist academics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2005 9:48 AM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2005 11:19 PM CanadianSteve has responded

  
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 107 of 178 (216036)
06-10-2005 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by nator
06-10-2005 11:05 AM


Re: here is what the AAUP thinks about the bill
They're wrong, only feeling threatened by a challenge to their leftist hegemony. Here's the bill in full:

Academic Bill of Rights

I. The Mission of the University.

The central purposes of a University are the pursuit of truth, the discovery of new knowledge through scholarship and research, the study and reasoned criticism of intellectual and cultural traditions, the teaching and general development of students to help them become creative individuals and productive citizens of a pluralistic democracy, and the transmission of knowledge and learning to a society at large. Free inquiry and free speech within the academic community are indispensable to the achievement of these goals. The freedom to teach and to learn depend upon the creation of appropriate conditions and opportunities on the campus as a whole as well as in the classrooms and lecture halls. These purposes reflect the values -- pluralism, diversity, opportunity, critical intelligence, openness and fairness -- that are the cornerstones of American society.

II. Academic Freedom

1. The Concept . Academic freedom and intellectual diversity are values indispensable to the American university. From its first formulation in the General Report of the Committee on Academic Freedom and Tenure of the American Association of University Professors, the concept of academic freedom has been premised on the idea that human knowledge is a never-ending pursuit of the truth, that there is no humanly accessible truth that is not in principle open to challenge, and that no party or intellectual faction has a monopoly on wisdom. Therefore, academic freedom is most likely to thrive in an environment of intellectual diversity that protects and fosters independence of thought and speech. In the words of the General Report, it is vital to protect “as the first condition of progress, [a] complete and unlimited freedom to pursue inquiry and publish its results.”

Because free inquiry and its fruits are crucial to the democratic enterprise itself, academic freedom is a national value as well. In a historic 1967 decision ( Keyishian v. Board of Regents of the University of the State of New York ) the Supreme Court of the United States overturned a New York State loyalty provision for teachers with these words: “Our Nation is deeply committed to safeguarding academic freedom, [a] transcendent value to all of us and not merely to the teachers concerned.” In Sweezy v. New Hampshire, (1957) the Court observed that the “essentiality of freedom in the community of American universities [was] almost self-evident.”

2. The Practice . Academic freedom consists in protecting the intellectual independence of professors, researchers and students in the pursuit of knowledge and the expression of ideas from interference by legislators or authorities within the institution itself. This means that no political, ideological or religious orthodoxy will be imposed on professors and researchers through the hiring or tenure or termination process, or through any other administrative means by the academic institution. Nor shall legislatures impose any such orthodoxy through their control of the university budget.

This protection includes students. From the first statement on academic freedom, it has been recognized that intellectual independence means the protection of students – as well as faculty – from the imposition of any orthodoxy of a political, religious or ideological nature. The 1915 General Report admonished faculty to avoid “taking unfair advantage of the student’s immaturity by indoctrinating him with the teacher’s own opinions before the student has had an opportunity fairly to examine other opinions upon the matters in question, and before he has sufficient knowledge and ripeness of judgment to be entitled to form any definitive opinion of his own.” In 1967, the AAUP’s Joint Statement on Rights and Freedoms of Students reinforced and amplified this injunction by affirming the inseparability of “the freedom to teach and freedom to learn.” In the words of the report, “Students should be free to take reasoned exception to the data or views offered in any course of study and to reserve judgment about matters of opinion.”

Therefore, to secure the intellectual independence of faculty and students and to protect the principle of intellectual diversity, the following principles and procedures shall be observed.

These principles fully apply only to public universities and to private universities that present themselves as bound by the canons of academic freedom. Private institutions choosing to restrict academic freedom on the basis of creed have an obligation to be as explicit as is possible about the scope and nature of these restrictions.

1. All faculty shall be hired, fired, promoted and granted tenure on the basis of their competence and appropriate knowledge in the field of their expertise and, in the humanities, the social sciences, and the arts, with a view toward fostering a plurality of methodologies and perspectives. No faculty shall be hired or fired or denied promotion or tenure on the basis of his or her political or religious beliefs.

2. No faculty member will be excluded from tenure, search and hiring committees on the basis of their political or religious beliefs.

3. Students will be graded solely on the basis of their reasoned answers and appropriate knowledge of the subjects and disciplines they study, not on the basis of their political or religious beliefs.

4. Curricula and reading lists in the humanities and social sciences should reflect the uncertainty and unsettled character of all human knowledge in these areas by providing students with dissenting sources and viewpoints where appropriate. While teachers are and should be free to pursue their own findings and perspectives in presenting their views, they should consider and make their students aware of other viewpoints. Academic disciplines should welcome a diversity of approaches to unsettled questions.

5. Exposing students to the spectrum of significant scholarly viewpoints on the subjects examined in their courses is a major responsibility of faculty. Faculty will not use their courses for the purpose of political, ideological, religious or anti-religious indoctrination.

6. Selection of speakers, allocation of funds for speakers programs and other student activities will observe the principles of academic freedom and promote intellectual pluralism.

7. An environment conducive to the civil exchange of ideas being an essential component of a free university, the obstruction of invited campus speakers, destruction of campus literature or other effort to obstruct this exchange will not be tolerated.

8. Knowledge advances when individual scholars are left free to reach their own conclusions about which methods, facts, and theories have been validated by research. Academic institutions and professional societies formed to advance knowledge within an area of research, maintain the integrity of the research process, and organize the professional lives of related researchers serve as indispensable venues within which scholars circulate research findings and debate their interpretation. To perform these functions adequately, academic institutions and professional societies should maintain a posture of organizational neutrality with respect to the substantive disagreements that divide researchers on questions within, or outside, their fields of inquiry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by nator, posted 06-10-2005 11:05 AM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2005 11:31 PM CanadianSteve has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6804
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 108 of 178 (216037)
06-10-2005 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by CanadianSteve
06-10-2005 11:15 PM


Re: There is nothing about quotas or preferential hiring
There are some who are calling for universities and colleges to make a deliberate effort to hire more conservative professors in order to provide more balance. You are correct, though, that this is a different issue than is being discussed here.

Edited to add:
At any rate, the purpose of my post was to answer Faith's question about the reaction of "leftists" if there were allegations of conservative bias in the universities.

This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 11-Jun-2005 03:26 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-10-2005 11:15 PM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-10-2005 11:35 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 178 (216040)
06-10-2005 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by CanadianSteve
06-10-2005 11:19 PM


Students should be free to take reasoned exception to the data or views offered in any course of study

Ah-hah. So, contrary to both your assertion and that of Faith, students under this bill are entitled to demand equal treatment of their counter-factual views.

Why is this a good idea?

What does it take to get you conservatives to stop whining all the time?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-10-2005 11:19 PM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-10-2005 11:40 PM crashfrog has responded

  
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 110 of 178 (216042)
06-10-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Chiroptera
06-10-2005 11:19 PM


Re: There is nothing about quotas or preferential hiring
You may be right that that is how leftists would respond. But I'm not so sure. Leftists often use quotas, affirmative action, "equal opportunity employer" stuff to redress wrongs they diagnose from stats. I think it is telling that conservative Horowitz's ABOR makes no such demand, preferring, instead, to demand that principles of fairness be established and maintained.

BTW, I once favoured affirmative action. But, as should have been obvious, once established along with corresponding interest groups, they would exist forever. And thus, two generations later, none of those groups are saying: Great job everyone; time to disband, victory having been achieved. They will never say such a thing, period, even if their desired equal stats are met. (Consider that more women enter university now than men, and they even outnumber men in Medicine and law faculties. What do the feminists say? Sure, but men still outnumber women in hard sciences: Wonder why they don't complain that women outnumber men in all other faculties, or in particular professions, like teaching and nursing?)

Conservatives say: Equal opportunity. Leftists say: Equal results.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2005 11:19 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2005 11:56 PM CanadianSteve has responded
 Message 115 by crashfrog, posted 06-11-2005 8:46 AM CanadianSteve has responded
 Message 119 by nator, posted 06-11-2005 9:45 AM CanadianSteve has responded

  
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 111 of 178 (216043)
06-10-2005 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by crashfrog
06-10-2005 11:31 PM


First, this bill was drafted with leftists. Second, I believe you are misinterpreting the bill. It says:

"Students should be free to take REASONED EXCEPTION to the data or views offered in any course of study." So, a student would have been free to take reasoned exception to the notion that Bush is a war criminal...or that Kerry is a war criminal (given his contentious service in Viet Nam and, especially, afterwards). Sounds fair to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by crashfrog, posted 06-10-2005 11:31 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 06-11-2005 8:43 AM CanadianSteve has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6804
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 112 of 178 (216045)
06-10-2005 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by CanadianSteve
06-10-2005 11:35 PM


Re: There is nothing about quotas or preferential hiring
A suitable topic for a new thread -- out of place here. Or are you just desperate to get the last word every time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-10-2005 11:35 PM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-11-2005 12:51 AM Chiroptera has responded

  
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 113 of 178 (216055)
06-11-2005 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Chiroptera
06-10-2005 11:56 PM


Re: There is nothing about quotas or preferential hiring
You, or someone, said that the ABOR was about quotas to provide more conservatives on campus. I was responding to that post. As for last word, I have not responded to a number of posts, including, I believe, some from you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Chiroptera, posted 06-10-2005 11:56 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Chiroptera, posted 06-11-2005 12:02 PM CanadianSteve has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 178 (216106)
06-11-2005 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by CanadianSteve
06-10-2005 11:40 PM


First, this bill was drafted with leftists.

You keep repeating that like it should mean something to me.

Second, I believe you are misinterpreting the bill.

Not so. I'm simply reading what is written in it, and as written, it grants students the "right" to object and reject facts presented to them in the classroom, and demands that the professor grant counter-factual positions the same level of respect as the truth.

Does it get more stupid than that? If the students are so smart that they already know everything, and they're not going to allow themselves to be instructed, then why are they at college in the first place?

So, a student would have been free to take reasoned exception to the notion that Bush is a war criminal...or that Kerry is a war criminal (given his contentious service in Viet Nam and, especially, afterwards). Sounds fair to me.

If one or both of those positions are factually true, why should someone be allowed to take exception? Faith couldn't answer that; can you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-10-2005 11:40 PM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-11-2005 11:43 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 178 (216107)
06-11-2005 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by CanadianSteve
06-10-2005 11:35 PM


They will never say such a thing, period, even if their desired equal stats are met.

But they haven't been met. That's why we still have affirmative action.

Conservatives say: Equal opportunity. Leftists say: Equal results.

The problem is that conservatives don't know what equal opportunity actually means.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-10-2005 11:35 PM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-11-2005 11:46 AM crashfrog has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 116 of 178 (216114)
06-11-2005 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
06-10-2005 6:24 PM


Re: here is what the AAUP thinks about the bill
quote:
You are right I was in a rush and didn't take the time to read it completely and am not taking the time to read it now although I may eventually.

Then I can't see where you have any business coming down one way or the other regarding this bill if you aren't interested in learning what the university professors think about it.

quote:
But I'm sure you posted it without reading through the arguments on my side of this too.

Well, you would be wrong.

I read the entire text of the bill for myself.

quote:
The point is that all the objections that are being posted here are treated as if nobody ever thought of them before, but when they are checked out it turns out they have reasonable answers, in fact have been answered many times over. The Academic Bill of Rights has been in the works for years now and has received tons of complaints that have been answered at length by David Horowitz and Sara Dogan and other representatives of the ABOR.

Well, What about the complaints raised right here?

quote:
Without reading through the evidence on the ABOR side of this everybody here just keeps throwing up uninformed objection after objection.

Um, my link that you don't feel like reading lists some very informed objections.

Also, we keep asking you to provide evidence of your claims of widespread, pervasive intimidation of conservative students, but you have yet to do so.

A list of a few incidents, some of which are questionable, does not suffice, sorry.

quote:
I understand that the sites that have been linked have a LOT of information on them and it is hard to sort through it all. NEVERTHELESS this automatic unthinking assumption that objections would not have been considered and answered in all that material is nothing but a reflection of the anti-conservative paranoia and prejudices that the bill is designed to address.

Attempts to legislate academic thought tends to get academics rather antsy, it's true.

Please read the link I posted, and then come back and explain specifically how the American Associateon of University Professors' concerns are completely unfounded.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-10-2005 6:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 117 of 178 (216115)
06-11-2005 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
06-10-2005 7:26 PM


Re: Lovers of lies and hatred all of you
I'd just like to say that this message of yours, faith, is a prime example of what the Academic "Bill of Rights" is all about; people like you who simply cannot tolerate contrary opinion.

quote:
You are the anti-intellectual kneejerk mindless accuser of people who has no respect for anything decent, you and most others here.

Nanny nanny boo boo! Poo poo head!

quote:
Anyone who can say that it could possibly be objective fact that Bush is a war criminal has no respect for true intellect,

So, some ideas should be banned from the classroom?

You are suggesting that there are some ideas that should be off limits for discussion?

quote:
for clear thought, no respect for the majority of decent Americans who voted for him, no respect for human beings, period, no respect for truth, for reason, for reality, no mind, no heart, no human decency.

So...someone who thinks differently from you is evil.

Got it.

quote:
No respect for the American values of tolerance and giving the benefit of the doubt and treating your opponent with respect. No respect for American freedoms.

Are you planning to acutally address the question any time soon?

quote:
The Leftist propaganda juggernaut is destroying everything true and good in this country and you and most others here are just riding along on it, blindly, unthinkingly, having NO idea of the true source of its evil anti-American smear campaign, while a very few of us have the guts to look it in the face and call it what it is. It's insanity, it's lies, it's evil. Get an education in what matters.

I'd love to see you at an academic conference, frothing at the mouth and ranting as you are escorted out of the building.

LOL!

You are certainly great entertainment, Faith, that's for sure.

I have no respect for your views, but you are entertaining.

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-11-2005 09:32 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 06-10-2005 7:26 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 118 of 178 (216117)
06-11-2005 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Thugpreacha
06-10-2005 7:39 PM


Re: Do something about it/ AAUP
quote:
Would you rather sacrifice American security and economic clout in the interests of human morality?

Yes, between those two, I choose morality.

I am frankly disturbed that you, a Christian, would think there is any choice at all in the matter, Phat.

However, this is a false dichotomy.

quote:
If so, you may have a good heart but you had best be prepared for the consequences.

Yeah.

Peace on earth, good will towards all people.

That would suck.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-10-2005 7:39 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 459 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 119 of 178 (216119)
06-11-2005 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by CanadianSteve
06-10-2005 11:35 PM


Re: There is nothing about quotas or preferential hiring
quote:
(Consider that more women enter university now than men, and they even outnumber men in Medicine and law faculties.

Is this true? Can you please show this to be the case?

quote:
What do the feminists say? Sure, but men still outnumber women in hard sciences: Wonder why they don't complain that women outnumber men in all other faculties, or in particular professions, like teaching and nursing?)

Please show your statistics that women outnumber men in faculty positions in all other professions besides the hard sciences.

Math faculty are mostly women? Engineering faculty are mostly women?

Political Science?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-10-2005 11:35 PM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 06-11-2005 11:49 AM nator has responded
 Message 123 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-11-2005 11:52 AM nator has responded

    
CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4762 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 120 of 178 (216142)
06-11-2005 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by crashfrog
06-11-2005 8:43 AM


When you and others argue that the ABOR is a conservative plot to bring change to campus, then it is relevant that it was drawn up with leftists.

You wrote, and almost all your arghumentation is based on, "If one or both of those positions are factually true, why should someone be allowed to take exception? Faith couldn't answer that; can you?"

Here's the problem: You assume certain things to be factually true that are not. So do many leftist profs. The allegation that the war was for oil, or that Bush is a war criminal, are good examples. It is that kind of subjective viewpoint that the ABOR provides for reasoned objection without grade or other sanction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by crashfrog, posted 06-11-2005 8:43 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Cthulhu, posted 06-11-2005 10:52 PM CanadianSteve has responded

  
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