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Author Topic:   Why not teach problems with ToE in school?
jar
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Posts: 33957
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Message 22 of 136 (125854)
07-20-2004 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by tubi417
07-20-2004 2:13 AM


because a lot of people on this forum argue that our origins are from some chemical reaction.

That certainly seems the most reasonable. But that has nothing to do with Evolution.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 33957
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Member Rating: 2.3


Message 34 of 136 (125949)
07-20-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by tubi417
07-20-2004 1:20 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
abiogenesis and evolution are often put together

Only by those who either do not understand what they are talking about or that have some ulterior motive.


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jar
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Posts: 33957
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Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 41 of 136 (126123)
07-20-2004 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by tubi417
07-20-2004 11:44 PM


If he's still out of jail
you can find his stuff at Dr. Dino


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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
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Member Rating: 2.3


Message 50 of 136 (126591)
07-22-2004 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 12:03 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
To the Christian:
Why are you not angry? Why are you not outraged?

Because, as a Christian, there is nothing in the TOE that goes against my religion. In adition, I want my kids to grow up knowing the truth when it comes to Evolution.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 55 of 136 (126615)
07-22-2004 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Jasonb

There is no one bothered by teaching the problems with the Theory of Evolution in schools. In fact, it is only by addressing those so called problems that the Theory will improve and become even more valuable.

But what so many people see as the problems with the TOE are not really so. To address the problems you first have to know what those problems are.

There is no problem with the age of the earth, no problem showing that life has evolved over the millions of years. The problems are far more in filling in the few remaining gaps and in learning the details of what happened over the eons. It is things like learning that many if not all dinosaurs were warm blooded, about their nesting habits, about their diets and behaviors.

It is in finding even more samples and fossils. It is in continued research to show the lineage and relationshipp between palnts and animals, between the primates, how the transition from reptile to mammal worked.

You say:

I define an evolutionist as someone who does not believe in a Creator and accepts the theories of evolution as to the origin of life.

That's a bad definition. First, it is false since the TOE does not address the orgin or life, but rather the origin of species. It says nothing about how life began, only recounts what happened after life began. It is the best explaination to what is seen in the evidence.

That may be a subtle difference, but it is an important one.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Member Rating: 2.3


Message 61 of 136 (126663)
07-22-2004 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 3:01 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Shown to be WRONG now come on. You may have theories that suggest, or evidence that is interpreted as being counter to a literal Genesis but to say it has been shown to be wrong is an absolute I just don’t think you can back up. Come on, someone help me out here.

Would like some support from the Bishop of Atlanta?

Too bad. It is not forthcoming.

Even Genesis falsifies Genesis. Christians have accepted that for many, many centuries.

The Bible is a wonderful and valuable book. But is not something to be taken literally, or as a science text, or as a history text.

The Map is not the Territory.

Let's address the issues regarding the TOE in the schools, But let's also put any literal interpretation of Genesis aside and move on.

Let me close by once again referencing the list of US Religious bosies that support teaching Evolution and that believe teaching Creationism must be opposed by all true Christians.

Religions Supporting Evolution

These churches and religious organizations have come out in opposition to teaching creationism in school:

* American Jewish Congress
* American Scientific Affiliation
* Center For Theology And The Natural Sciences
* Central Conference Of American Rabbis
* Episcopal Bishop Of Atlanta, Pastoral Letter
* The General Convention Of The Episcopal Church
* Lexington Alliance Of Religious Leaders
* The Lutheran World Federation
* Roman Catholic Church
* Unitarian Universalist Association
* United Church Board For Homeland Ministries
* United Methodist Church
* United Presbyterian Church In The U.S.A.


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jar
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From: Texas!!
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Message 63 of 136 (126677)
07-22-2004 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 3:15 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
You asked earlier about a fundamentalist/versus Evolutionist forum and this is about as close as you'll get.

The only folk that seem to support Creationism are fundamentalists, and mostly Judaic Fundamentaists, Jews, Christians and Muslims. They all base their position on the same stories and myths.

There are quite a few Christian Evolutionists on this forum. They see no problems, no threat and no conflicts between their beliefs and Evolution. There is no connection between evolution and religious beliefs except in the minds of a small minority of very vocal literalist. IMHO, the ratios that you see here are pretty representative of what you might find in the real world.

But you do need to understand that your worldview is not a Christian worldview, but rather a Literalists Worldview. It has nothing to do with Christianity, it does not address any of the points involved in Creeds. As Bishop Sims said in his Pastoral Letter addressing the issue of Genesis (and the conflicting statements within it) vs Evolution:

Insistence upon dated and partially contradictory statements of how as conditions for true belief in the why of creation cannot qualify either as faithful religion or as intelligent science. Neither evolution over an immensity of time nor the work done in a six­day week are articles of the creeds. It is a symptom of fearful and unsound religion to contend with one another as if they were. Historic creedal Christianity joyfully insists on God as sovereign and frees the human spirit to trust and seek that sovereignty in a world full of surprises.

You said:

That Christians, especially Fundamentalists like myself (thanks PaulK) should abandon the notion that our Christian worldview and the public school’s secular worldview can somehow be compatible if only we teach that there our some errors in the TOE.

Remember, for most Christians, there is no conflict in viewpoint or reason to find errors in the TOE. In fact, I find my faith reenforced by what has been learned of Evolution and the TOE.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 79 of 136 (126732)
07-22-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Robert Byers
07-22-2004 4:45 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
The reason evolutionists don't want evolution questioned or discussed in schools is because they have a higher agenda of fighting Christianity and its influence in society.

Those claims were refuted in another thread and were also address in Message 61 and Message 63 of this thread.

Unless you have something original to say, please stop repeating claims that have already been shown to be false.

You go on to once again say:

They are still in combat with the Protestant origins of the country.

Once again, that too has been refuted and you have been shown that it is false.

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

It's time to stop asserting incorrect data.

edited to tone down slightly

This message has been edited by jar, 07-22-2004 04:54 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 92 of 136 (127839)
07-26-2004 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Robert Byers
07-26-2004 2:49 PM


Robert Byers
Your contentions have been refuted numerous times and you seem unable to respond to those posts.

In America the Protestant faith has a foundation,repeat foundation,insisted and still a great deal insists that genesis is true and important to the Christian redemption story.

Simply not true. The vast majority of the Christian faiths in America, both Protestant and Catholic, have come out publicly to support the Therory of Evolution and to oppose Creationism.

Once again

Religions Supporting Evolution

These churches and religious organizations have come out in opposition to teaching creationism in school:

* American Jewish Congress
* American Scientific Affiliation
* Center For Theology And The Natural Sciences
* Central Conference Of American Rabbis
* Episcopal Bishop Of Atlanta, Pastoral Letter
* The General Convention Of The Episcopal Church
* Lexington Alliance Of Religious Leaders
* The Lutheran World Federation
* Roman Catholic Church
* Unitarian Universalist Association
* United Church Board For Homeland Ministries
* United Methodist Church
* United Presbyterian Church In The U.S.A.

So stop saying that opposing Creationism is an attack on the Faith or that Christians do not support Evolution.

The problem is not the TOE, the account of Creation in Genesis has simply been falsified time after time after time after time.

The Map is not the Territory

To continue teach myth as dogma is simply bad theology.

edited to fix spelling

This message has been edited by jar, 07-26-2004 02:03 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 113 of 136 (130026)
08-03-2004 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Robert Byers
08-03-2004 1:50 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Evolution is not a belief. It is a conclusion based on evidence. The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory that explains evolution.

Neither are religious in nature.

Creationism is religion.

Creationism is not science.

Creationism has no place in the science teachings in any school, public, Christian or any other form.

That is why even Church schools, with the exception of a few cult type schools, do not teach Creationism as science.

That is why the Christian community opposes teaching Creationism.

There is no problem discussing problems with the Theory of Evolution, but the Creation Myths are not problems, they are religious myths pushed by a small but vocal cult and while they might be appropriate in a Religous Studies course, they are not science.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
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Message 117 of 136 (130872)
08-05-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by almeyda
08-05-2004 10:22 PM


almeyda

It's been explained to you many, many times that almost all Christians not only accept the Theory of Evolution, but actively oppose teaching the pseudo-science of Creationism.

But to remind you, here is a partial list of the Religious organizations here in the US that have come out in active opposition to Creation and support of Evolution.

Religions Supporting Evolution

These churches and religious organizations have come out in opposition to teaching creationism in school:

* American Jewish Congress
* American Scientific Affiliation
* Center For Theology And The Natural Sciences
* Central Conference Of American Rabbis
* Episcopal Bishop Of Atlanta, Pastoral Letter
* The General Convention Of The Episcopal Church
* Lexington Alliance Of Religious Leaders
* The Lutheran World Federation
* Roman Catholic Church
* Unitarian Universalist Association
* United Church Board For Homeland Ministries
* United Methodist Church
* United Presbyterian Church In The U.S.A.

As Bishop Sims said in reference to using a literal interpretation of Genesis:

Insistence upon dated and partially contradictory statements of how as conditions for true belief in the why of creation cannot qualify either as faithful religion or as intelligent science.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 119 of 136 (130907)
08-06-2004 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Yaro
08-05-2004 10:27 PM


They play some games with the geneologies. For example, to make things work they claim that Luke Geneology is that of Mary and that the beginning is showing Joseph's father-in-law. But that presents yet another problem and that is inheritance. To pass on the line of David it should have to go through the male child. So how could the line of David be passed through Mary?

But fortunately, they found a loophole. See Numbers 27:8 and 36:6 for the solution.


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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
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Message 123 of 136 (130914)
08-06-2004 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by almeyda
08-06-2004 1:57 AM


Well, I've posted links to what the position of the Episcopal Church has to say about Evolution.

Here is the position of the Presbyterians.

Therefore, the Program Agency recommends to the 194th General Assembly (1982) the adoption of the following affirmation:

Affirms that, despite efforts to establish "creationism" or "creation­science" as a valid science, it is teaching based upon a particular religious dogma as agreed by the court (McLean vs Arkansas Board of Education);

Affirms that, the imposition of a fundamentalist viewpoint about the interpretation of Biblical literature -- where every word is taken with uniform literalness and becomes an absolute authority on all matters, whether moral, religious, political, historical or scientific -- is in conflict with the perspective on Biblical interpretation characteristically maintained by Biblical scholars and theological schools in the mainstream of Protestantism, Roman Catholicism and Judaism. Such scholars find that the scientific theory of evolution does not conflict with their interpretation of the origins of life found in Biblical literature.

Affirms that, academic freedom of both teachers and students is being further limited by the impositions of the campaign most notably in the modification of textbooks which limits the teaching about evolution but also by the threats to the professional authority and freedom of teachers to teach and students to learn;

Affirms that, required teaching of such a view constitutes an establishment of religion and a violation of the separation of church and state, as provided in the First Amendment to the Constitution and laws of the United States;

Affirms that, exposure to the Genesis account is best sought through the teaching about religion, history, social studies and literature, provinces other than the discipline of natural science, and

Calls upon Presbyterians, and upon legislators and school board members, to resist all efforts to establish any requirements upon teachers and schools to teach "creationism" or "creation science."

There is nothing in Christianity that oposes Evolution. Evolution does not preclude GOD. Rather Evolution is the best available explaination of HOW this wonderous world came about. It is the record that God wrote, unlike the Bible that was written by mere men.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 128 of 136 (130961)
08-06-2004 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by contracycle
08-06-2004 8:40 AM


Take it to the proper thread and I'd be glad to discuss it.


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jar
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Posts: 33957
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 129 of 136 (130962)
08-06-2004 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by almeyda
08-06-2004 2:52 AM


Find a good thread on that or start one and I would be happy to discuss it with you. But that's very much OT.


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