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Author Topic:   Why not teach problems with ToE in school?
jar
Member
Posts: 33909
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 61 of 136 (126663)
07-22-2004 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 3:01 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Shown to be WRONG now come on. You may have theories that suggest, or evidence that is interpreted as being counter to a literal Genesis but to say it has been shown to be wrong is an absolute I just don’t think you can back up. Come on, someone help me out here.

Would like some support from the Bishop of Atlanta?

Too bad. It is not forthcoming.

Even Genesis falsifies Genesis. Christians have accepted that for many, many centuries.

The Bible is a wonderful and valuable book. But is not something to be taken literally, or as a science text, or as a history text.

The Map is not the Territory.

Let's address the issues regarding the TOE in the schools, But let's also put any literal interpretation of Genesis aside and move on.

Let me close by once again referencing the list of US Religious bosies that support teaching Evolution and that believe teaching Creationism must be opposed by all true Christians.

Religions Supporting Evolution

These churches and religious organizations have come out in opposition to teaching creationism in school:

* American Jewish Congress
* American Scientific Affiliation
* Center For Theology And The Natural Sciences
* Central Conference Of American Rabbis
* Episcopal Bishop Of Atlanta, Pastoral Letter
* The General Convention Of The Episcopal Church
* Lexington Alliance Of Religious Leaders
* The Lutheran World Federation
* Roman Catholic Church
* Unitarian Universalist Association
* United Church Board For Homeland Ministries
* United Methodist Church
* United Presbyterian Church In The U.S.A.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 136 (126666)
07-22-2004 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Loudmouth
07-22-2004 1:46 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
And our suggestions were that the "problems" that creationists want taught are not, in fact, problems. This is the problem with creationists

I am not advocating that we teach the problems with the TOE, in schools. In fact I am advocating the opposite; That Christians, especially Fundamentalists like myself (thanks PaulK) should abandon the notion that our Christian worldview and the public school’s secular worldview can somehow be compatible if only we teach that there our some errors in the TOE. I don’t think it will help our fundamental cause, and that is to win our children to Christ. I think it causes confusion.


Jason B

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jar
Member
Posts: 33909
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 63 of 136 (126677)
07-22-2004 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 3:15 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
You asked earlier about a fundamentalist/versus Evolutionist forum and this is about as close as you'll get.

The only folk that seem to support Creationism are fundamentalists, and mostly Judaic Fundamentaists, Jews, Christians and Muslims. They all base their position on the same stories and myths.

There are quite a few Christian Evolutionists on this forum. They see no problems, no threat and no conflicts between their beliefs and Evolution. There is no connection between evolution and religious beliefs except in the minds of a small minority of very vocal literalist. IMHO, the ratios that you see here are pretty representative of what you might find in the real world.

But you do need to understand that your worldview is not a Christian worldview, but rather a Literalists Worldview. It has nothing to do with Christianity, it does not address any of the points involved in Creeds. As Bishop Sims said in his Pastoral Letter addressing the issue of Genesis (and the conflicting statements within it) vs Evolution:

Insistence upon dated and partially contradictory statements of how as conditions for true belief in the why of creation cannot qualify either as faithful religion or as intelligent science. Neither evolution over an immensity of time nor the work done in a six­day week are articles of the creeds. It is a symptom of fearful and unsound religion to contend with one another as if they were. Historic creedal Christianity joyfully insists on God as sovereign and frees the human spirit to trust and seek that sovereignty in a world full of surprises.

You said:

That Christians, especially Fundamentalists like myself (thanks PaulK) should abandon the notion that our Christian worldview and the public school’s secular worldview can somehow be compatible if only we teach that there our some errors in the TOE.

Remember, for most Christians, there is no conflict in viewpoint or reason to find errors in the TOE. In fact, I find my faith reenforced by what has been learned of Evolution and the TOE.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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CK
Member (Idle past 3367 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 64 of 136 (126678)
07-22-2004 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
07-22-2004 3:39 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Remember, for most Christians, there is no conflict in viewpoint or reason to find errors in the TOE. In fact, I find my faith reenforced by what has been learned of Evolution and the TOE.

just to add to that - over the water (The UK), creationism is seen as a strange american abberation by the vast majority of Christians.

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 07-22-2004 02:50 PM


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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 136 (126679)
07-22-2004 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 3:15 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
quote:
I don’t think it will help our fundamental cause, and that is to win our children to Christ. I think it causes confusion.

Do you think it helps the fundamentalist cause to teach a falsified theory to children? Creationism has been falsified by the evidence, not by evolution. Many christians have left the faith because of the lies that creationists put out. They soon realize that if their faith relies on a literal translation of Genesis, and the only way to support that translation is lies, then their faith is a lie as well. Requiring that all christians believe in a literal Genesis will only drive people away from the church, not bring them into the fold. Christians have come a long way, such as their adoption of heliocentrism. It seems that evolution is yet another hurdle they have to cross. Given that many denominations now accept natural evolution, it seems that the fundamentalist christian movement is lagging a bit.

Evolution is the theory that best fits the evidence we have on hand. It could be falsified tomorrow, or never. However, it is the theory that is driving research in the biological sciences, and so to do well in those fields you have to understand the theory. There are gaps in our understandings of chemistry and physics, but we still require children to learn about those godless, areligious theories as well (and with no gripe from fundies, how strange). Even some of the great christian scientists (eg Isaac Newton) kept references of God out of their theories. Evolution is no different.


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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 136 (126680)
07-22-2004 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 1:19 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
With my above definitions in mind, Evolution does equal Atheism

I define the word "God" to mean "Dan Carroll".

With my above definition in mind, you are arguing that school-children should be taught that I created life on Earth.

And while I'm flattered, I really think it should be backed up via the scientific method first.


"Egos drone and pose alone, Like black balloons, all banged and blown
On a backwards river the infidels shiver in the stench of belief.
And tell my mama I'm a hundred years late; I'm over the rails and out of the race
The crippled psalms of an age that won't thaw are ringing in my ears"
-Beck

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CK
Member (Idle past 3367 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 67 of 136 (126682)
07-22-2004 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Loudmouth
07-22-2004 3:49 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
That's actually what happened to me - I asked questions, people told me lies and I thought "hold on a minute!"

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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 136 (126683)
07-22-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by CK
07-22-2004 3:49 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
quote:
Remember over the water (The UK), creationism is seen as a strange abberation by the vast majority of Christians.

I said this in another thread, and I will say it again. Everyday the Brits look smarter for kicking the Puritans across the pond. The Mayflower, it seems, extended the last vestiges of the Dark Ages into our pseudo-modern American culture. I am just waiting for the next round of witch trials. Do you think they will keep the witches in Guantanamo Bay?


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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 136 (126686)
07-22-2004 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by CK
07-22-2004 3:51 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
quote:
That's actually what happened to me - I asked questions, people told me lies and I thought "hold on a minute!"

That's what happened to me as well. Luckily, I was able to realize that it was a relationship between me and God, not me and Genesis. I was able to reconcile science and religion rather easily. I did leave the faith, but it was for reasons other than the creation v evolution debate. However, it does make me cringe to hear young kids (16 and under) parroting those old arguments like "The sun is shrinking" or "how about that moon dust". I worry because it is only a matter of time before those arguments paint them into a corner that will threaten their faith. I have never wanted science to determine one's spiritual faith, even if I don't agree with their religious views.


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Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 136 (126694)
07-22-2004 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Dan Carroll
07-22-2004 3:50 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
I think this forum should be renamed, Evolution vs Evolution. Because that is the only discussion allowed. Am I the only one who stays on the topic?

‘Problems of evolution taught in school’ I say it is a mute point, if your purpose is to pursued people that evolution is false in order to have them except a creator. I don’t think this is where our (Creationists) time and energy should be spent.


Jason B

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CK
Member (Idle past 3367 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 71 of 136 (126695)
07-22-2004 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 4:08 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Jason - as I have mentioned if you want to discuss a particular burning issue that is not being covered by the board - propose a topic.

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 07-22-2004 03:15 PM


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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 72 of 136 (126697)
07-22-2004 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 4:08 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Spread the word to your fellow fundamentalists/creationists, then, Jason. The less they try to force their silliness into the public schools, the more we'll hopefully be able to start repairing the miserable mess we've gotton science education into.

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Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 136 (126707)
07-22-2004 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Loudmouth
07-22-2004 3:57 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
My last comment on this thread… (Stop Applauding)

That's what happened to me as well. Luckily, I was able to realize that it was a relationship between me and God,

I did not come to faith in God, by reading the bible. It was just the opposite. My faith in God lead me to the Bible. I accept the Bible as truth because I have no reason to doubt it. This may make me a lousy science teacher in a public school system, but it does not make me uninformed or somehow less intelligent than anyone else.

I sense a degree of hostility and arrogance in this thread that says if you take the bible as literal truth then you are a fool. I am sure other Fundamental Christians have received the same treatment which is why this forum seams to consist of primarily Atheists and Liberal Christians. I hope I can continue to contribute to the discussion and not have my pearls immediately cast aside. (That's a biblical reference. Geese, tough crowd.)
Thanks


Jason B

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CK
Member (Idle past 3367 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 74 of 136 (126709)
07-22-2004 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Jasonb
07-22-2004 4:33 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
I sense a degree of hostility and arrogance in this thread that says if you take the bible as literal truth then you are a fool.

I'd use the term "deluded" myself.


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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3608 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 75 of 136 (126713)
07-22-2004 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tubi417
07-18-2004 3:02 AM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Actually since the teaching of evolution says in effect and indeed says directly that the Bible and Christian doctrine on origins is wrong then iyour school is talking about religion. It can be said to be wrong but not be said to be right. Tyranny.

The reason evolutionists don't want evolution questioned or discussed in schools is because they have a higher agenda of fighting Christianity and its influence in society. They are still in combat with the Protestant origins of the country.
Also of coarse they since they insist evolution is the truth they can't allow doubt to be credible even though 50% of the population doesn't accept evolution and it flies in the faith of the Bible.
This is about bigger issues then the origins of the world
regards Rob


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