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Author Topic:   Why not teach problems with ToE in school?
CK
Member (Idle past 3357 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 76 of 136 (126720)
07-22-2004 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Robert Byers
07-22-2004 4:45 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
The reason evolutionists don't want evolution questioned or discussed in schools is because they have a higher agenda of fighting Christianity and its influence in society.

You have ANY evidence for this very silly idea?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Robert Byers, posted 07-22-2004 4:45 PM Robert Byers has taken no action

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 136 (126725)
07-22-2004 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Robert Byers
07-22-2004 4:45 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
quote:
Tyranny.

Christianity had it's chance. Remember the Dark Ages, the Inquisition? These were times when the chruch subdued anything that they deemed was heresy, including that the earth orbited the sun. Luckily for us, evidence instead of blind faith won out.

quote:
The reason evolutionists don't want evolution questioned or discussed in schools is because they have a higher agenda of fighting Christianity and its influence in society. They are still in combat with the Protestant origins of the country.

So you are saying that christian scientists are out to stop christianity? You do realize that there are thousands and thousands of practicing evolutionistary scientists who go to church on a very regular basis. Do you think these christians are trying to tear down their own faith? Your hatred has blinded you to your fellow christians.

quote:
Also of coarse they since they insist evolution is the truth they can't allow doubt to be credible even though 50% of the population doesn't accept evolution

Science has no problem with doubters, but they must use objective evidence in order to be taken seriously. That, and science is not supposed to mirror public opinion, only what the data shows.

quote:
This is about bigger issues then the origins of the world

Yes, it is about a christian minority wanting their translation of the Bible to be more important than what God has shown us through his creation. It isn't about the truth, it is about fundamentalists feeling important.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Robert Byers, posted 07-22-2004 4:45 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Robert Byers, posted 07-24-2004 4:38 PM Loudmouth has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 696 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 78 of 136 (126731)
07-22-2004 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Robert Byers
07-22-2004 4:45 PM


Actually since the teaching of evolution says in effect and indeed says directly that the Bible and Christian doctrine on origins is wrong

Remember the last time when you made this claim, and we all refuted it, and you had no significant response?

It's against the forum rules that you agreed to to keep repeating it:

quote:
Debate in good faith by addressing rebuttals through the introduction of additional evidence or by enlarging upon the argument. Do not merely keep repeating the same points without further elaboration.

When you repeat arguments already shown to be false you're not debating in good faith.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Robert Byers, posted 07-22-2004 4:45 PM Robert Byers has taken no action

jar
Member
Posts: 33889
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 79 of 136 (126732)
07-22-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Robert Byers
07-22-2004 4:45 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
The reason evolutionists don't want evolution questioned or discussed in schools is because they have a higher agenda of fighting Christianity and its influence in society.

Those claims were refuted in another thread and were also address in Message 61 and Message 63 of this thread.

Unless you have something original to say, please stop repeating claims that have already been shown to be false.

You go on to once again say:

They are still in combat with the Protestant origins of the country.

Once again, that too has been refuted and you have been shown that it is false.

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 (Richard Price had written to TJ on Oct. 26. about the harm done by religion and wrote "Would not Society be better without Such religions? Is Atheism less pernicious than Demonism?")

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

It's time to stop asserting incorrect data.

edited to tone down slightly

This message has been edited by jar, 07-22-2004 04:54 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Robert Byers, posted 07-22-2004 4:45 PM Robert Byers has taken no action

Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 80 of 136 (126743)
07-22-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Robert Byers
07-22-2004 4:45 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
even though 50% of the population doesn't accept evolution

That's merely a symptom of the same ailment - poor science education - that has about 50% of the American adult population ignorant of the fact that the Earth takes a year to orbit the Sun.
http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind02/c7/c7s1.htm#c7s1l4a
(see appendix table 7-10)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Robert Byers, posted 07-22-2004 4:45 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 81 of 136 (126763)
07-22-2004 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Robert Byers
07-22-2004 4:45 PM


Further advice
Robert, you have received good advice from in the posts that appear previous to this one.

Please, give some consideration to following it.


This message is a reply to:
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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 82 of 136 (127348)
07-24-2004 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Loudmouth
07-22-2004 5:08 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Loudmouth. Christianity is the source of all that is right in the world. For wxapmle America.

Anyways though you are right there are evolutionist church goers (though not as many as you think). What of it.
That doesn't change that mostly we creationists find the motives of activists evolutionists and supporters to be crusading against Christianity as a influence in America.
Also again there are few 9 to 5 paid evolutionary scientists.
And of coarse We don't believe they have a right to call themselves scientists but instead should be called historians.

Regards Rob


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Loudmouth, posted 07-22-2004 5:08 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2004 5:06 AM Robert Byers has replied
 Message 88 by Loudmouth, posted 07-26-2004 12:28 PM Robert Byers has replied
 Message 109 by nator, posted 07-31-2004 12:22 PM Robert Byers has taken no action

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 83 of 136 (127349)
07-24-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Coragyps
07-22-2004 6:16 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
Yeah but which half. I bet the creationist half could say about the reason for the yerly calender better then our opposite.
We come from the side who thinks carefully about these matters. Our opposite to a gret extent accepts what they are told and see no need to be engaged in science matters. And so remember nothing from school.
Regards

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by NosyNed, posted 07-24-2004 5:00 PM Robert Byers has taken no action
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2004 5:01 AM Robert Byers has taken no action

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8968
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 84 of 136 (127352)
07-24-2004 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Robert Byers
07-24-2004 4:44 PM


A little bet and some stats
I bet the creationist half could say about the reason for the yerly calender better then our opposite.

Guess what, I'll take that bet. What would you like to make it for? What will you take as evidence for either side? We can start a new thread on this one if you want to take it up.


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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 696 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 136 (127426)
07-25-2004 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Robert Byers
07-24-2004 4:44 PM


We come from the side who thinks carefully about these matters. Our opposite to a gret extent accepts what they are told and see no need to be engaged in science matters.

Are you sure you want to make that claim?

Why don't you ask around the site, here, and see which side of the debate has the most people with terminal degrees in biology, and which side is comprised mostly of teenagers, etc.

We can check grades, too. I got straight A's in all my biological science classes in high school and college. How did your guys do?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Robert Byers, posted 07-24-2004 4:44 PM Robert Byers has taken no action

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 696 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 86 of 136 (127428)
07-25-2004 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Robert Byers
07-24-2004 4:38 PM


Also again there are few 9 to 5 paid evolutionary scientists.

Really? I can give you a list of almost 300 "paid evolutionary scientists", if you like - and that's just looking at the folks named Steve:

http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/3541_project_steve_2_16_2003.asp

If we look at everybody we find that the biological community is united in its support of evolution, and that evolutionary ideas dominate current biological thinking. The vast, vast majority of biologists - paid or otherwise - are evolution supporters.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you represent any kind of majority, except a majority of the ignorant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Robert Byers, posted 07-24-2004 4:38 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Rrhain, posted 07-25-2004 7:05 AM crashfrog has taken no action
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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1102 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 87 of 136 (127443)
07-25-2004 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by crashfrog
07-25-2004 5:06 AM


crashfrog responds to Robert Byers:

quote:
quote:
Also again there are few 9 to 5 paid evolutionary scientists.

Really? I can give you a list of almost 300 "paid evolutionary scientists", if you like - and that's just looking at the folks named Steve:


That said, the number of "9 to 5 paid" scientists in a field doesn't really have that much to do with it. There are only a couple thousand "9 to 5 paid" astrophysicsts in the country...so few, in fact, that one year "astrophysicist" made the top of the "most dangerous profession" list. It seems that some had an accident in the observatory (falling off the telescope platform, getting crushed between the telescope and the dome, etc.) that the ratio was quite high.

Does the relative dearth of "9 to 5 paid" astrophysicsts mean astrophysics is a bogus field of scientific inquiry and that the work products of those astrophysicists are worthless? The stars really are lights set in a fixed dome?


Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2004 5:06 AM crashfrog has taken no action

Replies to this message:
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Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 136 (127779)
07-26-2004 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Robert Byers
07-24-2004 4:38 PM


Re: Problems of evolution taught in school
quote:
Loudmouth. Christianity is the source of all that is right in the world. For wxapmle America.

I wouldn't say that Christianity is the source of ALL that is right, but it is a source of loving, sharing people. This is not in doubt. However, their ability to trust fellow christians is taken advantage of through the outright fabrications that creationists use to support their position. Young Earth Creationism is just one example of bad things coming from the church. Requiring that a christian accept YECism seriously jeopardizes their faith.

quote:
That doesn't change that mostly we creationists find the motives of activists evolutionists and supporters to be crusading against Christianity as a influence in America.

And they are just as wrong for using evolution to disprove christianity as christians using the Bible to disprove science. Can you look in any scientific journal, textbook, or conference and find the theory within science that requires people to abandon christianity? The theory of evolution is an explanation of earth's natural history derived from objective, repeatable, falsifiable evidence. It says nothing about which gods you should worhsip, nor does it require you to abandon all religious faith. I, for one, hope that no one on this site loses their faith because of what is posted. However, pinning your faith on a literal Genesis is very dangerous, and (in my opinion) poor theology. God said to worship Him, not the Bible. Using lies to support the Bible is not worsphipping God, but worshipping man's works.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Robert Byers, posted 07-24-2004 4:38 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Robert Byers, posted 07-26-2004 2:49 PM Loudmouth has replied

Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 89 of 136 (127824)
07-26-2004 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by crashfrog
07-25-2004 5:06 AM


This is the first time you've made some points.

Even it there are three hundred (steves)paid evolutionists (and I doubt it) thats still very few for such a big country on matters so reaching. Also just teaching (repeating) other mens ideas doesn't make one engaged in science.
I don't know how many 9 to 5 paid evolutionists there are but if it is as in paleontology, as they say themselves, it must be very very few.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2004 5:06 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 90 of 136 (127828)
07-26-2004 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Rrhain
07-25-2004 7:05 AM


Welcome.You make my point. There are just a few astrophysicsts, relatively, and yet great ideas are presented to society as if a great movement of minds has come to conclusions that must replace previous conclusions.
I bet most of these people just repeat what they learned in books and independent thought is rare.
Yet in the creationist world we claim thousands of years( hundreds of years in the intellectually advanced English-speaking world)by millions of people persuaded by the truth of scripture and ready to contend with all comers. And science thinkers too many too count.

Regards


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Rrhain, posted 07-25-2004 7:05 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Rrhain, posted 07-31-2004 10:19 PM Robert Byers has taken no action

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