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| Author | Topic: Evolution of Creationism | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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PaulK Member Posts: 14715 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
"Nope" is not much of an answer. May I consider that it means that you consider the lying found by the court to be an example of the dishonesty I referred to ? Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
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Straggler Member  Posts: 10284 From: London England Joined: Member Rating: 3.5
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Yes that in terms of sentience, consciousness etc in particular. I think the whole area of artificial intelligence may force the same sort of debate that the ToE has already been through in the longer term. Dualism and the whole mind/body/soul concept could be an area of intense debate. Almost every faith has a belief in an afterlife of some sort which necessitates some form of self seperate from the physical which does not sit well with science. Cosmology is another obvious area. BB theory is adequate up to a point but there are major questions regarding how this could come about that remain and which are therefore ripe for creationist interpretation. Abiogenesis and the formation of life is another area that creationists will cling onto to the bitter end. Debates about the exact environment in which this could occur and how valid any laboratory experiment designed with the purpose of creating life can be, will rightly be asked. Demonstrating that this can occur without intelligent intervention of some sort could be very difficult indeed. Any area in which faith based beliefs have anything to say regards the physical world or our interaction with it are potential areas of debate but I think the above are the main areas that creationists in their various forms will be most desperate to hold onto and most difficult to prise from their grasp. Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.
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kuresu Member (Idle past 558 days)  Posts: 2544 From: boulder, colorado Joined: |
Now then, seeing as how they did actually manage to do this (very little in the ways of outside literature made it into thier colonies), and this veiwpoint was still being defended in the 1700s, and the heliocentricness was discovered in the 1500s, that gives us about 200 years of resistance to the heliocentric model. And that's a relatively minor point compared to the evolution issue for creationists (especially for the literalist--in this case, there is biblical evidence. in the geocentric, that is not directly mentioned in the bible, IIRC). Were only a little over a hundred years into this debate. (keep in mind, this holds true so long as I remember that date of 1700s right--I don't have the book anymore to check up on that) Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
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Straggler Member Posts: 10284 From: London England Joined: Member Rating: 3.5 |
Having said that the rate of scientific progress has increased somewhat in the last few hundred years so we might at least keep the creationists on their toes.
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helena  Suspended Member (Idle past 3889 days) Posts: 80 Joined: |
Edited by Admin, : Spam hidden. It's harmless, but Helena's been spamming the site. I deleted her two proposed topics that consisted solely of links.
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dwise1 Member  Posts: 3282 Joined: Member Rating: 7.9
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Second, you posted this a few minutes after proposing it as a new topic, thus attempting to bypass the system. I'm sure that a moderator will have a heart-to-heart discussion with you about such unethical behavior. Third, the claim is not only pure bullshit, but it's also a PRATT ("point refuted a thousand times" -- though I keep forgetting exactly what the "P" stands for, could be "previously"). Creationist claims consist almost completely of PRATTs. Most new creationists here start out immediately by posting PRATTs and usually leave very soon afterwards after being informed by most other members here that their claims are wrong, they were shown to be wrong decades ago, and OBTW here is precisely what's wrong with those claims. Basically, yes, Piltdown Man was a hoax, though we don't know exactly who had perpetrated. It was finally revealed by scientists to be a hoax, whereupon it was immediately dropped and used no more. Compare that with the conduct creationists whose main-stay are PRATTs -- ie, their claims are demonstrated to be false and yet they keep on using those same false claims, even in those cases where they acknowledged that their claims were false. Nebraska Man was not a hoax, but rather a mistake. The tooth had unusual wear patterns from having been rotated in its socket, so that make it looked like it could be an anthropoid tooth. Not everybody was convinced, so it was not accepted by all. Within a few years, the original researchers discovered that was a peccary tooth and published a notice to that effect and that was that. The drawing reconstructing Nebraska Man was made by an artist in London now connected to the research and the only ones still circulating it are creationists. The Talk.Origins Archive (http://www.talkorigins.org/) is an excellent source of information and it discusses almost all known creationist PRATTs. A couple pages dicussing the true story of Piltdown Man are http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_piltdown.html and http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/piltdown.html. And for Nebraska Man there's http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_nebraska.html and http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC002.html (from the creationist-claim index project, with which you should make yourself familiar). For that matter, go to the home page (first link given) and select "Search the archive" enter a keyword and it will Google through the site for you. Bottom line is that both Piltdown and Nebraska are examples of science's success at detecting and correcting hoaxes and mistakes. OTOH, creationism's record in that regard is abysmal failure.
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Von Cullen Junior Member (Idle past 3527 days) Posts: 13 Joined: |
As a molecular biologist I find it rather comical how the so called evolutionists here accuse creationists of "PRATTS", when you yourselves repeatedly do the exact same thing; only you refuse to recognize that scientific literature consistently refutes 99% of your arguments.
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subbie Member (Idle past 5 days)  Posts: 3508 Joined: |
Then you won't have any problem providing a link or a citation to some of this scientific literature, will you? For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
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Percy Member  Posts: 18254 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
A molecular biologist who isn't an evolutionist? Wow, that leaves out even Michael Behe!
Interesting claim, but off-topic here. You could propose it as a new thread over at Proposed New Topics. --Percy
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Dr Adequate Member  Posts: 16083 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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You must also presumably find it "comical" how the scientists who produce all this scientific literature also "refuse to recognize" exactly the same thing. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin. You'd think that they'd know what was in the scientific literature, but presumably in your crazy fantasy world, they don't. --- To return to the topic, this, at least, is one aspect of creationism that hasn't changed --- they have been claiming victory for the last 200 years or so. Ex-creationist Glenn Morton has called it The Longest Running Falsehood in Creationism. Their arguments may have been abandoned one by one ... but their nutty and dishonest claim that victory is in just within their grasp has been passed down from generation to generation.
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Dr Jack Member (Idle past 150 days)  Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: |
See Bruce, E., "The revealed poverty of the gene-meme analogy - why memetics per se has failed to produce substantive results", Journal of Memetics, 2005, Vol 9, Issue 1, p1-4 (which is, in fact, the last issue of that journal ever published)
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Von Cullen Junior Member (Idle past 3527 days) Posts: 13 Joined: |
I didn't say I wasn't an evolutionist, but evolutionary science falls under a very broad spectrum; yet too many people try to bottle it up into one very narrow argument. Evolution is factual science but it is not the end all be all explanation for life on earth, yet many attempt to present it as such; all the while making a mockery of those who don't accept it.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16083 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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One interesting way that creationism evolves is simplification. A creationist argument usually starts off with a creationist reading something about science and misunderstanding it --- the original "mutation" that converts it into a creationist argument. So, when the creationist argument is first produced, it will have a certain amount of complexity and subtlety inherited from the ancestral scientific idea from which it evolved. As it passes from one creationist to another, anything that makes it simpler makes it easier to infect a creationist brain, and therefore is a selective advantage. Unlike a genuine scientific idea, it doesn't have to be able to do anything but propagate itself --- no-one ever uses it for anything. And because it only has to pass between creationist brains, it doesn't have to be sophisticated enough to deceive anyone who knows anything about science. So, like all parasitic organisms, it becomes simpler and simpler in form. One interesting aspect of this --- I don't know if it has an analogue in biology --- is that this progressive simplification helps prevent the mounting of an immune response. When, for example, creationists are wrong about the neck of the giraffe, it would be much easier to debunk their nonsense if the called the rete mirabile the rete mirabile. If they call it a "special sponge", it becomes much harder for anyone to find out that they're wrong, because it would first be necessary to find out what the heck they're being wrong about.
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16083 Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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And yet you believe that the scientific literature consistently refutes 99% of evolutionary arguments? I guess you must think that the remaining 1% are really, really good, then?
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Straggler Member Posts: 10284 From: London England Joined: Member Rating: 3.5 |
Does the theory of evolution by means of natural selection explain the diversity of life as observed to exist? Who does not accept evolution on the basis of a valid alternative in your opinion?
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