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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and an Old Earth: Part II.
Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 241 of 306 (254737)
10-25-2005 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by RAZD
10-23-2005 4:53 PM


I'm coming. I haven't read or posted anything since Thursday and now it's Tuesday so I'm just getting back into it.

This message is a reply to:
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Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 242 of 306 (254743)
10-25-2005 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by RAZD
10-20-2005 6:51 PM


Not quite. The cave drawings were dated with 14C (1), from artifacts found in the cave that had been living plant material before being brought into the caves by the artists.
OK, got that part.
What the lake varves actually do is correlate the 14C with the variations in atmospheric 14N and cosmic radiation (how 14C is generated). This means fewer assumptions in the date answers.
Is it that they can tell what the climate was like then, when these artifacts were supposedly made? This is very foggy for me.
Maybe because I don't know much about C14 or N14.

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 Message 226 by RAZD, posted 10-20-2005 6:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by NosyNed, posted 10-25-2005 2:56 PM Christian has replied
 Message 253 by RAZD, posted 10-25-2005 8:51 PM Christian has replied

Christian
Member (Idle past 6255 days)
Posts: 157
Joined: 10-16-2005


Message 243 of 306 (254746)
10-25-2005 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-05-2004 3:42 PM


A good overview of the method, problems, limitations and accuracy of radiometric Carbon 14 dating can be found at Carbon Dating:
I tried to look at this but the page could not be displayed. It's hard for me to put a lot of stock in carbon dating when I've heard so many accounts of things that were known to be younger or even still alive that came out old when they dated them. Also I've heard of diamonds which should be billions of years old, but still have carbon in them.

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 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-05-2004 3:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by NosyNed, posted 10-25-2005 2:52 PM Christian has not replied
 Message 245 by Chiroptera, posted 10-25-2005 2:55 PM Christian has replied
 Message 247 by roxrkool, posted 10-25-2005 3:16 PM Christian has replied
 Message 252 by RAZD, posted 10-25-2005 6:47 PM Christian has not replied
 Message 256 by RAZD, posted 10-25-2005 9:31 PM Christian has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 244 of 306 (254749)
10-25-2005 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Christian
10-25-2005 2:47 PM


C14 dating
I tried to look at this but the page could not be displayed. It's hard for me to put a lot of stock in carbon dating when I've heard so many accounts of things that were known to be younger or even still alive that came out old when they dated them. Also I've heard of diamonds which should be billions of years old, but still have carbon in them.
As you learn more about it these things are explained. You should be very careful of all the sources that you read.

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 Message 243 by Christian, posted 10-25-2005 2:47 PM Christian has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 306 (254750)
10-25-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Christian
10-25-2005 2:47 PM


I know what he meant.
quote:
Also I've heard of diamonds which should be billions of years old, but still have carbon in them.
Heh. I should hope so. Diamonds are basically pure carbon. If they didn't have carbon in them, they would disappear.
Sorry. I couldn't resist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Christian, posted 10-25-2005 2:47 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 246 of 306 (254751)
10-25-2005 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Christian
10-25-2005 2:23 PM


Not a climate issue
Is it that they can tell what the climate was like then, when these artifacts were supposedly made? This is very foggy for me.
Maybe because I don't know much about C14 or N14.
RASD has moved a bit quickly I think.
The climate isn't the influence on C14 dates that is the concern. We know where C14 comes from (it is created high in the atmosphere from N14 (I think it is) by radiation from space). We also know that the rate of creation of C14 is not constant. So we know that a correction to C14 dates is needed.
The lake varves offer a measure of the degree of error caused by the non-constant creation of C14 and a correction for it. The degree of error is less than 10 %. The corrections vary from very much less than that up to about that much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Christian, posted 10-25-2005 2:23 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 247 of 306 (254758)
10-25-2005 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Christian
10-25-2005 2:47 PM


I'm sure you mean diamonds with Carbon-14 in them, so do you have an article on this? I couldn't find any papers on GeoRef about such a thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Christian, posted 10-25-2005 2:47 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by NosyNed, posted 10-25-2005 3:30 PM roxrkool has replied
 Message 268 by Christian, posted 11-01-2005 5:50 PM roxrkool has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 248 of 306 (254760)
10-25-2005 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by roxrkool
10-25-2005 3:16 PM


C14 in diamonds
I have read some material about C14 in diamonds that is generated by local radioactivity and the levels are right for that source. I think it has even come up here before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by roxrkool, posted 10-25-2005 3:16 PM roxrkool has replied

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roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 249 of 306 (254765)
10-25-2005 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by NosyNed
10-25-2005 3:30 PM


Re: C14 in diamonds
I know I've seen it mentioned before, but has it only been found and studied by creationist organizations? I can't find any mainstream papers about this. I've tried several different search terms, but perhaps I haven't hit the right one yet.

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 Message 250 by Coragyps, posted 10-25-2005 4:35 PM roxrkool has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 250 of 306 (254770)
10-25-2005 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by roxrkool
10-25-2005 3:58 PM


Re: C14 in diamonds
The only study I've seen was YEC - from AiG, I think. Probably a poster session at a real geology meeting! The 14C levels were pretty dang low, giving "dates" of 40,000 years old or so. I may have something at home with some leads on this: I'll look if I get the chance this evening. There are certainly paths to creating 14C in diamonds, from either 13C or nitrogen that's present in the diamond, but I have no clue about how much these paths could actually make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by roxrkool, posted 10-25-2005 3:58 PM roxrkool has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 251 of 306 (254797)
10-25-2005 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Coragyps
10-25-2005 4:35 PM


Re: C14 in diamonds
and all they need to do is find diamonds near a radioactive source - same as coal and uranium problem.
also 45k to 50k is the limit of 14C methods (depends on method used -- and I would "trust" AiG to use the lesser accurate methods)
This message has been edited by RAZD, 10*25*2005 06:25 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Coragyps, posted 10-25-2005 4:35 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 252 of 306 (254800)
10-25-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Christian
10-25-2005 2:47 PM


Carbon 14
I tried to look at this but the page could not be displayed.
(sigh) another broken link in an old post. Thanks, I have now fixed it.
Try this site (several linked pages with some good graphics):
How Carbon-14 Dating Works | HowStuffWorks
It's hard for me to put a lot of stock in carbon dating when I've heard so many accounts of things that were known to be younger or even still alive that came out old when they dated them.
Try this site for some explanations of the problems that scientists know about (and creatortionistas exploit) -- please note the title:
Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective
Radiometric Dating
This article is VERRRRY LOOOOOONG (every time I visit it seems he has added whole new sections) and he discusses all forms of radiometric dating, so you may want to search the page for where "carbon" is discussed to read just those sections initially. You may want to print it out to read later.
Also I've heard of diamonds which should be billions of years old, but still have carbon in them.
I'll assume you do mean 14C rather than all C (12C, 13C and 14C), as a pure diamond would be nothing but carbon ... 12C is the normal everyday version and the other two are both much much smaller components of the total carbon.
14C is the one used for dating.
One of the problems here is contamination, either in the ground or after the fact, by other radioactive substances that then cause a false measurement. Wiens discusses this as well.
Gotta go. more later.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 10*25*2005 09:12 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Christian, posted 10-25-2005 2:47 PM Christian has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 253 of 306 (254815)
10-25-2005 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Christian
10-25-2005 2:23 PM


climate
Is it that they can tell what the climate was like then, when these artifacts were supposedly made?
There are many things that indicate climate trends and patterns to the paleobotanists and paleoclimatologists, from numbers and kinds of pollen to types of flora and fauna. Google on {"Younger Dryas" climate} (use the quotes as shown) and you will find information about a specific cooler climate period about 12,900 - 11,500 years ago. It is called the "Younger" because there were others that preceeded it.
At wikipedia (Dryas - Wikipedia) you will see that this is named for a plant that occurs then:
In botany, Dryas is a plant genus, family Rosaceae.
In climatology, Dryas is a name given to several climatic periods in which the plant Dryas flourished. See, for example, Younger Dryas.
You can also google {"little ice age"} and you will see reference to a very cold period from the 14th to the mid-19th centuries that was also documented in the historical texts ... and it affected what farmers could grow, so it shows up in harvest reports as well.
We also know that the production of 14C is affected by the climate, thus we can predict that there would be a specific variation of 14C age data with climate and would expect a specific sided variation in the data during the above periods. This was observed, it is one of many such correlations.
Maybe because I don't know much about C14 or N14.
Ignorance (no slight intended, just the meaning of the word) is not a crime ... unless it is used to form (unfounded) opinions. It is also curable: you can find out.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Christian, posted 10-25-2005 2:23 PM Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Christian, posted 11-01-2005 6:21 PM RAZD has replied

roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 254 of 306 (254817)
10-25-2005 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by Coragyps
10-25-2005 4:35 PM


Re: C14 in diamonds
Like you, I've only found creationist sites that cite this evidence, but I haven't actually found the exact paper, either, that presents the results of such a study. Knowing what I know about creationist 'research,' I wouldn't be surprised if the C-14 was the result of contamination.
I couldn't find any secular papers discussing C-14 in diamonds, do you have links or refs to any?

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 Message 250 by Coragyps, posted 10-25-2005 4:35 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by JonF, posted 10-25-2005 9:37 PM roxrkool has replied

roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 255 of 306 (254818)
10-25-2005 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by RAZD
10-25-2005 6:23 PM


Re: C14 in diamonds
Do you have a link discussing diamonds-radioactivity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by RAZD, posted 10-25-2005 6:23 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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