Hammer found in Cretaceous layer

How about we settle the composition of this hammer once and for all.
I have a state of the art facility right here where the chemical composition of the hammer can be analyzed.I have 3 different types of mass spectrometer, XRay flourescence (XRF) and Instrumental Neutron Activation Analysis In the labs that I run at the University of Missouri. I also have access to Nuclear Magnetic Resonance equipment.I make this offer to you.Persuade this guy to let us analyze the hammer and I will do it for free. I will also allow anyone you like to come in and watch the entire process to make sure that the data isn't being mis-represented.
After all this is done I will co-author a scientific paper with the meteorite's owner (no matter what the outcome) and submit it to as many scientific journals as will accept it.I can't be any fairer than that can I?PYIncidently I have done quite a bit of work for NASA in the past (meteorites and stuff) too.

Sure I would.I am only talking about the chemical composition here though. I don't have the equipment or expertise to date the thing. (actually I probably do have the equipment with the nuclear reactor to do Ar/Ar but I wouldn't know the first thing about applying it)
I can give a complete breakdown of the Cl, Fe and all the other stuff that would make this a 'novel' kind of iron and all I need is a half gram sliver of metal taken from a tiny hole drilled into the hammer head. There's no point trying to analyze the surface as that will have been hopelessly contaminated by exposure to the natural environment.PY

Tal Know the feeling. Most of my college years were completed while I already had a family. However it was well worth the effort and sacrifice to get to where I am now.The reason that I suggested that you also contact the museum is that they may be a bit more open to the suggestion if it comes from a creationist. I think that their response to me will be a resounding NO. But what the heck? I may as well give it a try.PY

Percy and others.I have sent a polite email letter to the people at the Creation Evidence Museum, inviting them to have further analysis of the hammer done at my labs. I have offered them a way to have it analyzed free of charge by means of a research grant that we have here already in place.We will have to wait and see what their response is.Here is a copy of the letter.

quote:

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Good morning.

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I have recently encountered references to the hammer artifact that you have at your museum and have become very interested in it.
Do you by chance have references to the published articles showing its chemical properties and analysis. I could not find reference on your web site to the actual analysis.
I also note that your website says that further analysis are planned on the artifact.

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I would like to take this opportunity to offer the services of the Missouri University Research Reactor (MURR) analytical chemistry department to further investigate its chemical properties.

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I run a group of labs here at MURR centering on Inductively Coupled Plasma Mass spectrometry where we specialize in the chemical analysis of difficult matrixes and artifacts. (Please see our web site at No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.missouri.edu/~murrwww/pages/ac_main.shtml)
We also have a very good materials analysis facility No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.missouri.edu/~murrwww/pages/ms_main.shtml where many other types of analysis may be carried out.

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I would very much like the opportunity to analyze the chemical composition of this hammer artifact as the subject intrigues me.
Our facility extends an offer to other educational facilities such as yourself, wherein an internal grant at the University of Missouri will cover the entire cost of any such analysis of this or other artifacts.
After the analysis I would be happy to co-author a scientific paper with you.

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I look forward to hearing from you.

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Best Regards

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Barry Higgins
Spectrometrist
Missouri University Research Reactor
Phone # Office 573-882-5390
Lab 573-882-4159

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Needless to say. Should they agree to have this analysis done then I will make sure that the analysis is performed with a completely unbiased method. If it turns out that they are right then that is exactly what I will report.PY

Sounds entirely feasible. Guess it depends on the thickness of the layer. It's also possible that the Chlorine could have migrated into the surface layers of the iron if the stuff around it were significantly loaded with Cl.
If they allow me to analyze it then I will sample it at various depths by drilling into it. That way we will be able to tell the true composition both at the surface and deeper inside where the iron will be untouched.PY

Thanks Quetzal. It was kind of difficult to keep a straight face. But I have to separate my personal views from my profesional ones. When dealing with any other professional body I have to remember that I am speaking for the University so I must keep everything civil.I expect that most of these people are sincere enough anyway. They honestly beleive what they say. I am pretty sure that some don't though.Besides, I have a better chance of getting a shot at the hammer to find out what is really the deal here, if I treat them with respect.PYPS Hey Syamsu! What point do you reckon these odds will be 'realized' then? This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 01-06-2005 13:26 AM

It seems kind of unlikely that the chlorine is chemically bonded to the iron, particularly if it leached into the hammer from its surrounding. There is a good chance that Chlorine from natural waters in the ground could have adsorbed onto it though. If this is the case then drilling beyond the weathered zone (about half inch at most) should produce pure Iron with no Chlorine. If it is still there at this depth then we have to conclude that it was always there.I have no idea what benefit the Cl would give to the iron. I would have expected it to oxidize faster rather than slower.Chlorine is highly electronegative so it tends to form ionic bonds rather than covalent or metallic. ie. it prefers to donate its single outer-shell electron completely (forming an anion) rather than share it with another atom. Common Chlorine molecules include NaCl (salt) and HCl (Hydrochloric acid)In the presence of a Cl- anion (or even a covalently bonded Cl atom normally only found bonded to Carbon)and water, the H+ ion tends to be liberated from water making it extremely corrosive. Just try putting salty water on a sheet of steel to see what I mean.H2O + NaCl (water and table salt) H+ OH- + Na+ Cl- <--> HCl +NaOH (Hydrochloric acid and Sodium Hydroxide. Nasty stuff)PY

Sounds good to me. I will do my bit with the chemical analysis.
Any body out there got a good dating lab? etc.Course it all depends on whether they let me get my latex gloved hands on the sample doesn't it?PY

I don't trust samples taken by anybody. Unless the person taking it is highly skilled and experienced, the sample will be contaminated in some way. I see this all the time.If he indicates that he is willing to have the hammer analyzed then I will either (preferably) have one of his people bring the entire artifact here for analysis or send my top research chemist out there to sample it. Either way I will make sure that at least one of his people is present for every step of the analysis.
It is kind of difficult to bias a properly done chemical analysis but this way, whatever results come out then nobody can acuse anybody of cheating.
I will also make sure that the analyst actually performing the tests will not know which sample is which so that bias in results interpretation cannot enter into it.PY

This is exactly what I am offering, along with a viable route to getting results published in mainstream scientific journals. If these artifacts are genuine then he should jump at the chance shouldn't he?I haven't heard back yet but it has only been a couple of days.PY

Well, It's been over two weeks now since I officially offered to analyze the chemical composition of the hammer.
As yet there have been no replies at all.I offered a FREE analysis and a way to get their data published in a regular and well respected scientific journal.
I also made the offer that one of their "scientists" could be present during the entire analysis to observe, help out and generally make sure that the data was not tampered with in any way.Their complete lack of response only leads me to beleive that they are hiding something and are afraid to have the "real" data published.
I suppose it is possible that they could be just slow but if I were in their shoes and I was sure of my results then I would jump at the chance to prove my point to everybody.I will give them a couple more weeks and after that, I will consider this cretaceous hammer well and truly debunked due to their complete unwillingness to let a real lab get their hands on it.PY

What kind of odds are you thinking of?I would guess at about 100:1 that they won't reply at all Perhaps we need to get Syamsu and Razd in here to debate the odds PY

Satrekker
Any chance you might be able to dig up the references to any papers written on this hammer?I have been unable to find anything at all despite hours of searching on the University's library system and on the internet. Everything I find just leads back to the same site where Carl talks about it.I even asked him personally if he would mind letting me take a look at his data.So far I have heard absolutely nothing back and quite frankly I don't expect to.I would be very interested to find out a little more about which processes in the forging of a hammer, could be dependent on pressure. Metalurgy is not my best field but I do know physical chemistry pretty well. I just can't think of how this could be a factor. I mean to make a significant difference in a chemical reaction you would likely need at least 10s if not 100s of atmospheres of pressure.
Incidentally, the pressure in a closed kiln can get pretty high too, so if the hammer had been heated in such a device, a couple hunderd years ago, it could have had the same effect as an increased atmospheric pressure.I will see if I can find out a little more about the effects of pressure on iron and steel reactions before making further comments.PY