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Author Topic:   Hammer found in Cretaceous layer
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 121 of 160 (181619)
01-29-2005 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Juhrahnimo
01-28-2005 9:57 PM


Re: ?
Would I lie? See Electro-mechanical engines of Perpetual Motion and Natural Selection. As the author will freely admit, no one's been able to disprove his masterful theory!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-28-2005 9:57 PM Juhrahnimo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Juhrahnimo
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 160 (181833)
01-30-2005 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Percy
01-29-2005 8:43 AM


Interesting;
Yes, I see. Interesting how he handled that little "friction" problem.
Oh, and speaking of Clark Gable, your photo of him was a little outdated. Here's a more recent photo of him in his more dignified latter days.
This message has been edited by Juhrahnimo, 01-30-2005 12:18 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Percy, posted 01-29-2005 8:43 AM Percy has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 160 (181975)
01-31-2005 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
01-25-2005 3:48 AM


Re: Mine Trixters
If the hammer was lost in the 19th Century and trapped in a concretion between then and the time it was found then it isn't a fake. But it isn't evidence of creation either.
How many 19th century documented concreted things do we find that look as old as this formation for comparison?

In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 01-25-2005 3:48 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 124 of 160 (181982)
01-31-2005 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Buzsaw
01-31-2005 1:05 AM


Re: Mine Trixters
Well the hammer looks like a 19th Century hammer. The condition would be surprisingly good for something even thousands of year old (wood usually rots except in unusual conditions) and the supposed carbon date is consistent with a 19th century origin. So really it's worth asking what evidence is there that it is anything older ?
There's an 18th Century concretion here
http://www.ah.dcr.state.nc.us/qar/july04.htm
The "fossil clock" on this creationist page looks even more similar
how long does it take for something to fossilize?

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 Message 123 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2005 1:05 AM Buzsaw has replied

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 160 (182423)
02-01-2005 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by PaulK
01-31-2005 2:43 AM


Re: Mine Trixters
Well the hammer looks like a 19th Century hammer. The condition would be surprisingly good for something even thousands of year old (wood usually rots except in unusual conditions) and the supposed carbon date is consistent with a 19th century origin. So really it's worth asking what evidence is there that it is anything older ?
1. I suppose there's not a lot of ways to design a hammer.
2. Thanks for the links. I don't know where the hammer was found, so far as location dating goes, but it appears that it will depend a lot on dating data and I don't know how much of that's been done.

In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 01-31-2005 2:43 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 126 of 160 (182453)
02-01-2005 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Percy
01-29-2005 8:43 AM


Re: ?
you might want to edit that to the new site
Compelling Questions About The Grand Unified Theory

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 127 of 160 (182472)
02-02-2005 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Buzsaw
02-01-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Mine Trixters
We do know that the hammer was found in a loose concretion and there is no evidence that it was ever embedded in the cliff. At present there is no significant evidence that it is prehistoric (not even contextual finds that would make such an assignment plausible),
As to the other finds, the "finger" certainly isn't a fossil finger. Which leaves the pot which also has potential explanations and no context that would make a prehistoric origin plausible (I would like to see more evidence before coming to a definite conclusion, but a recent origin is more likely on what evidence we do have)

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 Message 125 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2005 7:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Buzsaw, posted 02-03-2005 10:08 PM PaulK has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 128 of 160 (182545)
02-02-2005 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
01-05-2005 4:37 AM


Researching Charles Knight's recent and unrelated question, I stumbled across If I Had a Hammer.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 129 of 160 (182574)
02-02-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by JonF
02-02-2005 11:05 AM


Hmm. I wonder if someone should let the NCSE know they have a serious, creationist-level misstatement in that article?
Why was there no attempt to date the hammer stylistically (it is of recent American historical style) or to subject the metal and/or wood to radiocarbon analysis instead of only doing this to some unrelated stick from Michigan? (emphasis added)
I'm no geologist, but I wasn't aware you could use C-14 dating on metal? I'm sure the author simply mis-stated, but since we pride ourselves on clear and factual refutations of creationist nonsense, this is a pretty big one, IMO.

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Replies to this message:
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TheLiteralist
Inactive Member


Message 130 of 160 (182734)
02-03-2005 1:57 AM


anecdotal evidence
That's a term I've heard over the years but never knew what it meant. Thanks to Answers In Genesis [AiG], I now know that means the "evidence" is just a story or anecdote. It doesn't mean it's false, but it isn't exactly "hard" evidence, either.
AiG considers chains and cups found in coal (but no longer attached to the coal) to be items, the claims of which are anecdotal.
Here is a link to a good page at their site that Lam first introduced me to: Arguments We Think Creationists Should NOT Use. You can scroll up and down and read several arguments that AiG suggests Creationists not use and the various reasons why, but I have it set to go right to the part about artifacts found in coal (but no longer attached to coal).
While I cannot know Mr. Baugh's motives, I can certainly understand people percieving as misleading his decision to make a replica of the cup embedded in coal, when the actual cup is not. I don't think I would do it. I might show the cup, but be careful to point out it is only an interesting story. More likely I wouldn't display the cup at all. I fail to see the purpose, once it is understood what anecdotal evidence means. It becomes more like hype than actual facts to consider in the EvC debate. I see the potential for setting up some less-knowledgeable creationists for serious disappointment and possibly causing them to doubt the whole idea of creationism, once they see how meaningless such things are, if they are held out as some amazing, evolution-defeating fact, when it is just an old cup with an interesting story.
Anyways, the evidence that the cup was ever embedded in coal is only ANECDOTAL and it ever shall be. AiG says in another place regarding a gold chain supposedly found in coal (a newspaper reported this apparently--and I think the chain is on display somewhere but free of all coal):
This is exactly what is meant by anecdotal evidence. The word is derived from ‘anecdote’ meaning ‘story’. There is a story, but no coal sticking to a chain.
This quote is what helped drive home what "anecdotal" evidence is (all those years I never knew!)
I don't think the hammer is a fake as pointed out by JonF or PaulK (or someone) earlier, but I can see, after reading this thread, that I won't be holding it out as evidence of pre-Flooders. I would tend to go with the recent accretion theory unless some evidence indicates otherwise (esp. if the style matches some known historical style).
As far as the cup goes...who knows...I would be dubious of all claims surrounding it. I don't think I'd even bother trying to explain it away (if I were an evolutionist). As a creationist I won't be mentioning it unless specifically asked about it.
I hope Mr. Baugh takes PY up on the offer, and I appreciate PY's making such a generous offer.
This message has been edited by TheLiteralist, 02-03-2005 02:20 AM

Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 131 of 160 (182797)
02-03-2005 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by TheLiteralist
02-03-2005 1:57 AM


Re: anecdotal evidence
The above post is the reason I enjoy discussing things with you, TheLit. I agree with you 100% (you're not slipping to the Dark Side, are you? ). Baugh and others like him (Hovind is a supreme example) are the best advertisements for the loyal opposition that exist. Every utterance and false claim by these hucksters and outright purveyors of falsehood causes more people to question creationism as a whole than any 100 scientific journal articles. No one likes to be lied to or made to look like a fool...

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 160 (182843)
02-03-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by TheLiteralist
02-03-2005 1:57 AM


Re: anecdotal evidence
Congratulations sir. A wonderful post. As a Christian to anther Christian I applaud you.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 133 of 160 (182962)
02-03-2005 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by jar
02-03-2005 10:34 AM


Re: anecdotal evidence
how about a POTM?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 02-03-2005 10:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 134 of 160 (182963)
02-03-2005 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by RAZD
02-03-2005 9:43 PM


Re: anecdotal evidence
Q beatcha to it.
TheLit has his first PotM already.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 135 of 160 (182964)
02-03-2005 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by RAZD
02-03-2005 9:43 PM


Re: anecdotal evidence
Actually I believe someone already proposed that. It is certainly worthwhile.
Yup, see Message 3

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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