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Author Topic:   Buz's refutation of all radiometric dating methods
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 5 of 269 (43593)
06-22-2003 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Buzsaw
06-22-2003 1:30 AM


You seem to be forgetting that the company that Austin used to date the Mt. Saint Helens rock, Geochron Laboratories, specifically states that one should not use K-Ar dating on recent lava flows as it will not give accurate results (though they don't do K-Ar dating anymore).
And yet Austin, knowing full well that the process he was using was invalid, did it anyway and claimed that the erroneous date was somehow damning evidence against radiometric dating.
Think about it: If you use a meterstick to measure a grain of sand, you're going to get a value of one meter which we all know is wrong.
Does that mean metersticks are worthless and the entire process of mensuration is inherently flawed?
Of course not. It simply means that you shouldn't use a meterstick to measure a grain of sand. For that, you need small gauge calipers.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Buzsaw, posted 06-22-2003 1:30 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 27 of 269 (43895)
06-24-2003 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by tomwillrep
06-22-2003 11:18 AM


tomwillrep responds to edge:
quote:
if your argument is correct please shwo me a source made BEFORE the tests were taken stating that they knew the dating method would not work- if they stated that afterwards then i would be very suspicious.
The problem is that the company in question, Geochron Laboratories, no longer does K-Ar dating. They used to have a website that specifically described the requirements for submission for K-Ar dating, but it has been taken down since they no longer do that.
However, at the time it said, and I quote, "We cannot analyze samples expected to be younger than 2 M.Y." This can be referenced in Geotimes 1995-7.
When we combine this with the work of other scientists in the field of radiometrics like Dalrymple which showed that K-Ar dating isn't effective for young rocks, we are left concluding that Austin was either terribly incompetent in doing a K-Ar dating on recent lava flows or was deliberately being disingenuous.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by tomwillrep, posted 06-22-2003 11:18 AM tomwillrep has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 29 of 269 (43931)
06-24-2003 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
06-24-2003 11:24 AM


buzsaw responds to crashfrog:
quote:
If the lava, limestone, sand, or whatever makes up the layers or rock beds, existed before the organism buried in it existed, that doesn't make the organism the same age as those elements into which it becomes buried, does it? If I bury a dead carcas in the earth, that doesn't make it the same age as the earth.
No, but if you do something to make the rock read "new" as in make it from fresh lava, create a new sedimentary layer in a flood, etc., then anything buried in it is the same age as the rock in which it is buried.
What you're saying is that the stone was created in the flood and then somehow an organism that is much younger than it managed to get impregnated in it without disturbing any of the layers above it.
Think of it like making lasagna: You put down your layer of pasta, some sauce, some cheese, another layer of pasta, etc.
If you were to forget to add the cheese at that third layer, how do you propose to get it in there without first pulling up all the layers on top first?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 06-24-2003 11:24 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Buzsaw, posted 06-24-2003 2:17 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 210 of 269 (45797)
07-11-2003 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Buzsaw
07-11-2003 9:28 PM


buzsaw writes:
quote:
1. Nobody knows the unknowns so far as the elements used in dating go in the timespan of scores of millions to billions of years ago. All scientists can go on is the status quo and what is observed today.
Of course. That's one of the first tenets of science: Don't make stuff up. You can only go with the information you have. Since we have been unable to find any particular method by which radioactive decay can change rates, we don't get to just make up the opinion that it can.
quote:
2. The Biblical track record for history/prophecy/fulfillment harmony is quite remarkable and lends credence to the rest of the Biblical record.
I'm not sure you want to use this as an argument. The track record for history/prophecy/fulfillment harmony in the Bible is quite remarkable in its failure. If you're going to base the credibility of the rest of the Bible on this, then one wonders why you think the Bible has any credibility at all.
quote:
3. If the earth is old and life young, fossils created by sudden catastrophy would be entombed in old material rendering dating methods useless because of the contamination of the new by the old it is entombed in.
Not without completely destroying the material in the process.
That is, if I have a lovely pan of lasagne and I want to embed a quarter in it just above the bottom layer of pasta after it's been baked, I'm going to have to destroy at least some of the lasagne in order to get to it. And if we use a catastrophic method such as a flood in order to gain access to the lower layers, there's no way I'm going to get a pristine pan of lasagne when I'm done.
Therefore, if we find a quarter in a pristine pan of lasagne, we necessarily conclude that it was placed in the dish beforehand, not afterward.
quote:
4. Possibly some unknowns of past milleniums explain the success of harmony in some multiple dating methods because the same unknowns including the supernaturalism factors that affect one method may affect the other methods also causing error in all methods.
This is the same error of your first point. You don't get to make stuff up. We have a situation that seems quite reasonable (multiple, independent methods converge on a single date, thus the date is quite likely to be accurate) and your response is that no, there is something, you don't know what but you know that there has to be something, that is making them all wrong in the same way. Never mind that this error would only be useful for a single date since the distortions would lead to conflicting results for other dates (non-identical curves have at least one point of incongruity.)
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Buzsaw, posted 07-11-2003 9:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by crashfrog, posted 07-12-2003 12:00 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 268 of 269 (486285)
10-18-2008 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Raedril Delvon
10-16-2008 11:36 AM


Raedril Delvon writes:
quote:
Same with the moon, which was tested with radiometric dating and was shown to be supposedly older than earth.
Incorrect. The moon has dated to younger than the earth:
Stony Brook Research writes:
Stony Brook's team, led by Oliver Schaeffer, determined the concentration and isotopic signature of argon gas contained in lunar samples. They combined these data with potassium concentrations for the same samples to derive an age of about 4 billion years for the Moon.
Other results put it at about 4.2 bya to a maximum of 4.5 bya. The earth is dated to about 4.5 bya. The moon is not older.
quote:
So, wouldn't that be contradictory to say that the earth is younger than the moon when it was made of the earth's crust?
It would if the moon had been dated to be older than the earth.
It hasn't. The earth is not younger than the moon.
quote:
Are you claiming to know more than a ancient book?
Yes. Unless you are trying to say that everything that could be known was known 3000 years ago and that all of it was written down in a single volume of about 1500 pages, then of course we know more than an ancient book.
quote:
It even says in plain words that the earth moves around the sun (Psalms 19:4-6)
No, it doesn't. It says the exact opposite:
Psalms 19 writes:
19:4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
19:5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
19:6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
How do you get an interpretation of the earth going around the sun from a statement that the SUN is "coming out of his chamber"? I honestly want to know the answer to this question: What do you think the "bridegroom" is referring to? What in the sentence makes it not the sun?
quote:
a couple of thousand of years before it was accepted by the scientific world, or even the creation of the sciences.
Incorrect. While heliocentrism wouldn't gain acceptance until the about the 16th century, it did not originate there. If one is going to stretch interpretations, as you seem to be wont to do, then we should look to the Ancient Greeks.
Aristotle writes:
At the center, they [referring to the Pythagoreans] say, is fire, and the earth is one of the stars, creating night and day by its circular motion about the center
The "fire" to which the Pythagoreans were referring was not the sun. They believed that everything, including the sun, orbited the primal fire. If we're stretching metaphors, then this would seem to be a description of galactic motion: The sun orbits the center of the galaxy, a place rife with stars.
But, let's not go with metaphorical abstractions. Aristarchus advocated the sun being the center of the solar system.
Archimedes writes:
You King Gelon are aware the 'universe' is the name given by most astronomers to the sphere the center of which is the center of the Earth, while its radius is equal to the straight line between the center of the Sun and the center of the Earth. This is the common account as you have heard from astronomers. But Aristarchus has brought out a book consisting of certain hypotheses, wherein it appears, as a consequence of the assumptions made, that the universe is many times greater than the 'universe' just mentioned. His hypotheses are that the fixed stars and the Sun remain unmoved, that the Earth revolves about the Sun on the circumference of a circle, the Sun lying in the middle of the orbit, and that the sphere of fixed stars, situated about the same center as the Sun, is so great that the circle in which he supposes the Earth to revolve bears such a proportion to the distance of the fixed stars as the center of the sphere bears to its surface.
And that doesn't go into the other cultures that developed it such as the Hindu vedas:
Yajnavalkya writes:
The sun is stationed for all time, in the middle of the day.... Of the sun, which is always in one and the same place, there is neither setting nor rising.
So we have a scientific treatise and a non-Christian text saying the earth moves around the sun and then we have the Christian text saying the sun moves around the earth. Where were you going with this?
quote:
Where's your material for the "big bang"? "Matter cannot be created, nor destroyed in a chemical reaction." So, you going to keep thinking you are correct on a theory that is dispoven by it's own law?
Are you seriously claiming that physicists developed a theory that contradicted one of the most fundamental statements of physics and didn't notice?
Hint: The Big Bang isn't about the creation of the universe but rather the expansion of the universe.
quote:
Also, if the radioactive decay was accelerated by the "heat"
Huh? Radioactive decay isn't affected by heat.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Raedril Delvon, posted 10-16-2008 11:36 AM Raedril Delvon has not replied

  
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