Dude, take a look at this.
I know it's a bit long but if you read it and attend to some of the points you are trying to counter you may save yourself the bother (pay particular attention to the part where he inserts a god into the picture seemingly at random.
Tesla has been debated with before and has no intention of altering his stance.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
i say: nothing outside energy is real.
you say: prove it.
Larni writes:
No I don't! I say (again) that all you are saying is that only real thing are real. Very good. We can all agree real things are real.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
i say: if it isn't energy, it isn't real. it will never be measured. it will never be found, it will never exist. because it would not be real.
you say: what about ghosts? thoughts? space?
Larni writes:
NO I DON'T.
I say that (again) we agree that only real things are real. I don't believe in ghosts or fairies or gods or any of that bullshit.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
i say: ghosts: IF there "real" can only exist in a form of energy, even if you cant measure it with current technology, because if not energy, it isn't real. thoughts: they exist in your mind which is a part of your body, which is a ton of different energy transfers, chemically, and small electric pulses and perhaps other unmeasurable energies. space: 1 cubic liter of space would boil the earths oceans i believe one poster said. (radiation, fields, and light are some measurable energies in space)
you say: none of that makes sense.
Larni writes:
No. I. Don't. I don't believe in ghost and all that crap (as I mentioned). If by space you are talking about vacuum enegy density then you are on very shaky ground with you boiling off oceans idea.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/vacuum.html
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
i say: how doesn't it?
reality i say, is only what is real. and if it can never be measured, it wouldn't exist. and since we do exist, energy was first that made it possible. and its too perf4ect, too complex and ordered to have just "appeared" out of nothing. so something was the first "genesis" energy.
Larni writes:
This is where you start down the logical fallacy called arguement from incredularity. It seems 'too perfect, too complex etc'. The flaw in your arguement is that it is only your opinion of 'too perfect, too complex etc'. One cannot base conclusions on not being able to imagine something being true.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
so what would we call the genesis energy? well...existence. since that was has to be before anything else.
and so i applied the genesis energy to scientific enquiry and found the "law of existence".
Larni writes:
You continue to dig a hole for yourself. The energy in the nacent universe has no obvious connection to genesis outside of theology. We are in a science forum, not a religious one.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
the only debate that has been brought to me is : well you didn't measure it, so its not there.
Larni writes:
Not so. You have made fallacious logical errors in your thinking to get from things having to be real to energy having to be real to energy having to be first to this energy being 'genesis energy'. No mention of measuring.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
i say: I'm here. the galaxy is there. so it was there. or nothing would be.
Larni writes:
Again you simply state that things have to be real to exist. WE KNOW!
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
that's as simple as i can explain it. you can choose to ignore the truth of it, but all your tentative science is a big "maybe" and this law that "i am, so the earth was, so the galaxy was before that, and so the greater energy that was first was there, is sound. perfect. and indisputable.
Larni writes:
Again all you state is that you are real, the earth is real the galaxy real and was once in a highly energetic state right after the big bang. THIS IS OBVIOUS TO ANY ONE!
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
that's why you cant change my mind, and never will. because its true. and you can only come to terms with the truth of it if you actually try to debate the soundness of it, instead of looking for reasons to say it isn't sound.
Larni writes:
No one here is argueing that what is real is real.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
the law really is easy to defend. because all true science is supported by it. relativity, because of it all coming from the same start is sound. and point of view of the individual becomes clearer when its understood.
Larni writes:
No one here is argueing that what is real is real.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
its the difference between looking at your life through a window, to looking at your life as whats staring you in the face.
Larni writes:
No one here is argueing that what is real is real.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
I'm not saying you'll agree with me. who out there who doesn't want to accept any religion, would be willing to accept science that proved that nothing could be at all without God?
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
so if that's your motivation, all the science in the world wont change your mind.
Larni writes:
The thing is tesla, that all you have managed to say is that energy is real and always was so your god is real. That does not follow. I may as well say that energy is real and always was so Enki is real, or Odin or Zeus. You being correct about energy being real does not make your god or the 'creation model' that you have failed to provide in 190 post real.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
I'm hoping for a scientist who wishes to know the truth MORE than his/her willingness to not change there points of view.
Larni writes:
To do this you need to use the tools of science and you have fallen far short of the mark.
tesla writes:
tesla writes:
so then if such a scientist is out there, try to defend this law in the debate against another, and see how easy it is.
Larni writes:
But tesla, you have not defended it. You have said energy is real therefor god is real.
Like the wookie defence; IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE
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