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Author Topic:   polonium halos
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 71 of 265 (485365)
10-07-2008 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by AlphaOmegakid
10-07-2008 5:37 PM


Re: More Polonium Poppycock Palaver ... no rebuttals of mobile Radon, just denial
Gentry in his AAAS paper writes:
Lorentz's efforts to explain this null result on the basis of an absolute reference frame were supposedly untenable. The real explanation, according to almost every physics textbook written in the past 60 years, was given by the theory of relativity, namely that: Given the null result of the Michelson-Morley experiment, if the fundamental principles of relativity are true, then there is no absolute reference frame. But the CMR is an absolute reference frame, so the original relativistic deductions about the Michelson-Morley experiment are in error. More precisely, since logic requires the contrapositive of a statement to be equivalent to the statement itself, the preceding "if relativity is true, then no absolute reference frame" statement must be equivalent to "if an absolute reference frame exists, then the fundamental principles of relativity are untrue." In simpler terms the theory of relativity has been falsified because a major prediction of the theory is now known to be contradicted by an unambiguous experimental result. Without relativity theory there is no Big Bang, no Hubble relation for the redshift, and no explanation for the CMR in an evolutionary cosmological model.
Sadly off-topic here, but this shows that Gentry is quite capable of being utterly mis-informed and ignorant of a subject he is supposedly critiquing. He appears quite unaware of the difference between the Special Theory of Relativity and the General Theory of Relativity. Either that, or he is deliberately conflating the two in the hope of deception. Either way, this is an appalling indictment on his status as a scientist. I find it very hard to believe this passed any real level of peer-review. Had it arrived on my desk for review, it would have made the 'nutter of the week' wall (and this purely on the bsais of his Relativity comments - nothing to do with his creationist stance)
Anyone want to try to defend his argument in an appropriate thread?

This message is a reply to:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 85 of 265 (485766)
10-11-2008 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by AlphaOmegakid
10-07-2008 5:37 PM


Re: More Polonium Poppycock Palaver ... no rebuttals of mobile Radon, just denial
Gentry proposes the thoery of a maximum of three singularities to account for the U and T halos and other phenomena.
Now you may not like this hypothesis, because known physics laws can be violated in a singularity. However, let me remind you that this is exactly what is promoted by mainstream science in the BBT (the uniformitarian creation model). A singularity in which the known laws of physics and quantum mechanics breaks down.
A singularity is the point where the *theory* breaks down. It is not a signal that you can introduce fairies. You cannot pose a singularity *as a theory*. This is complete nutball territory, and again shows that Gentry, if he is indeed claiming this, has no grasp of fundemental physics. Do you have the peer-reviewed reference for where Gentry makes these claims?

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 143 of 265 (487213)
10-28-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by AlphaOmegakid
10-28-2008 3:38 PM


Re: Your (fudged) evidence is as bad as Haeckel's Embryos
Hey, AoK, I like the work you are putting into this.
Can you explain why the outer ring is so obviosuly not matched by your autocad circle? The autocad circle is some considerable distance outside it (e.g. upper right of the 'e' in Fluorite.) What causes this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 3:38 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 5:19 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 144 of 265 (487214)
10-28-2008 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by AlphaOmegakid
10-27-2008 11:19 AM


Re: Before I respond.....
RAZD writes:
238U halos that take hundreds of millions of years to form
Gentry deals with all of this in his cosmological theories which go way beyond the scope of discussion of Po halos.
I must say that it is very brave of Gentry to suggest cosmological theories when his grasp of relativity is so poor.
Go on, start on a thread on this. You know you want to

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-27-2008 11:19 AM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 146 of 265 (487217)
10-28-2008 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by AlphaOmegakid
10-28-2008 3:38 PM


Re: Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong[qs]
RAZD writes:
Clearly does NOT line up with the outer rings - your diameters there show a gap between your "measured" diameter and the actual ring...
You are wrong. Period. You are fraudulently wrong.
Are you sure? Because it certainly appears from your own annotated images that RAZD is correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 3:38 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 5:31 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 150 of 265 (487222)
10-28-2008 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by AlphaOmegakid
10-28-2008 5:19 PM


Re: Your (fudged) evidence is as bad as Haeckel's Embryos
It does match.
No, it obviously doesn't. The autocad circle is some considerable distance outside the P214 ring (e.g. upper right of the 'e' in Fluorite - actually from above the 'o' in Fluroite clockwise to 2 o'clock position)
Why?
but we know that the measurements are taken at the largest diameters on the ring.
Why? Surely you would mark to the maximum of the ring? Why would variation in the alpha penetration only ever fall short of the theoretical distance? Wouldn't an extended source create a natural spread in the ring diameter, with the central maximum corresponding to the theoretical prediction?
Even if the measurement is taken to the maximum extent of the ring, the image shows that the autocad circle is well beyond this. I'll put up an exploded image when I have a minute.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 5:19 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 6:21 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 151 of 265 (487223)
10-28-2008 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by AlphaOmegakid
10-28-2008 5:31 PM


Re: Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong Wrong[qs]
I guess a physicist like you measures the diamter of his vehichle tires by the inside diameter of the tread?
Physicists like me understand the nature of distributions. Astrophysicists like me understand this very well in our measurements of stellar and cosmological spectra.
It is the outside/maximum diameter that reflects the alpha decay energy.
Why?
If you are so wise about this, then why don't you do a little investgative work...
I have little interest in Gentry. I want to know why your autocad Po214 circle is well outside the very obvious Po214 halo, even allowing for your 'maximum diameter' measurement. Any clues?
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 5:31 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 6:31 PM cavediver has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 153 of 265 (487227)
10-28-2008 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by AlphaOmegakid
10-28-2008 6:21 PM


Re: Your (fudged) evidence is as bad as Haeckel's Embryos
cavediver writes:
Wouldn't an extended source create a natural spread in the ring diameter, with the central maximum corresponding to the theoretical prediction?
AoK writes:
The reason all rings are not "perfect" and there is some variation in them and you have a width to the rings is because the radiocenter has a physical size. The isotopes are emitting from different physical locations within the radiocenter.
Is there an echo in here?
Anyway, this means that the maximum radii of the halo at a particular angular location would correspond to the furthest extent of the extended source from its mean centre in that same angular direction.
So why would you mark to the maximum of the halo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 6:21 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 6:38 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 156 of 265 (487232)
10-28-2008 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by AlphaOmegakid
10-28-2008 6:38 PM


Re: Your (fudged) evidence is as bad as Haeckel's Embryos
This circle only has an outside diameter that is definable. In the case of U238 halos they measure the OD of the U238 stain. In the case of Po halos, they measure the OD of the Po210 stain. Then they do likewise for all other isotopes.
Can you show documentation of this? For the reasons I have previously explained, and your own description of the broadening process, this makes absolutely no sense. But even if it is done, it is obvious that this will not align with the theoretical radii calculated. The calculated radii shoudl align with (or close to) the centre of the observed halos, irrespective of any practical difficulties with teh actual measurement.
With this in mind, RAZD's autocad Po214 circle shows a much better match than yours, and in no way can be said to be wrong - and most certainly not fraudulently wrong. Will you retract your accusations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 6:38 PM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 157 of 265 (487233)
10-28-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by AlphaOmegakid
10-28-2008 6:38 PM


Re: Your (fudged) evidence is as bad as Haeckel's Embryos
Just to add some colour to this:
and
These indisputably show your autocad circles as very wide of their intended mark, *even if* supposedly being marked to the outer edge of the observed halo.
Why is this?
This is in contrast to RAZD's images:
and
The Po214 autocad circle looks spot on. The Po218 autocad circle could be argued as being slightly short of the apparent maximum, by a few pixels, but nothing outside the error of visual measurement. ABE: Actually having looked at this again, I take this back. It looks perfect
Whatever the status of the "Po210/Rn222" halo, RAZD's autocad lines are far more accurate than AoK's. Anyone disagree?
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-28-2008 6:38 PM AlphaOmegakid has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by RAZD, posted 10-28-2008 11:40 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 159 of 265 (487255)
10-29-2008 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by RAZD
10-28-2008 11:40 PM


Re: 222Rn found -- as predicted.
ctually the second is also AlphaOmegaKid's image - he posted two.
Ah, ok, thanks for the correction.
QED as they say, eh?
I think the obvious conclusion is that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Rn222 is involved, and Gentry's extreme views will need some extremely strong evidence to suggets that Rn222 was not present. Does he provide any in his peer-reviewed publications?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by RAZD, posted 10-28-2008 11:40 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 162 of 265 (487284)
10-29-2008 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by AlphaOmegakid
10-29-2008 2:27 PM


Re: Anecdotal Evidence
Sorry, I didn't get a reply to this:
Just to add some colour to this:
and
These indisputably show your autocad circles as very wide of their intended mark, *even if* supposedly being marked to the outer edge of the observed halo.
Why is this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-29-2008 2:27 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-29-2008 2:39 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 164 of 265 (487288)
10-29-2008 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by AlphaOmegakid
10-29-2008 2:39 PM


Re: Anecdotal Evidence
Sorry, I didn't get a reply to this:
cavediver writes:
Astrophysicists like me understand this very well in our measurements of stellar and cosmological spectra.
You mean you actually measure stellar and cosmological spectra?
Yes, of course. Not for a long time, sadly, but it used to be life before I moved into theoretical and mathematical phsyics. In fact, I would do everything from prep the scope, guide the observation (while freezing my nuts off), perform the CCD subtractions, extract the spectra, and then start analysis. Fun days...
Gentry, Henderson, Sparks, and Meiers all measure the halos and they agree on the results.
Great - it is your autocad circles with which I have such strong disagreement, presented in a post that spoke of RAZD's lying and fraud. Can you explain why your autocad circles were so far off the Po halos? Was it a simple attempt to discredit RAZD by fraudulent means, whilst falsly accusing him of dishonesty? Enquiring minds wish to know what Jesus thinks of your rather obvious tactics?

This message is a reply to:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 165 of 265 (487289)
10-29-2008 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by AlphaOmegakid
10-29-2008 2:39 PM


Re: Anecdotal Evidence
cavediver writes:
Sorry, I didn't get a reply to this:
See Message 152
But Message 152 simply states that the source is not point-like, but extended, which will naturally lead to a broadening of the halos. Clearly measuring to the outer edge of the halo will produce an incorrect radius, as this radius is produced by source that is the most displaced from the origin of the halo!
And in your case, your circles are not at the outer edge, but substantially beyond it, as is obvious in the image below. Why is this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-29-2008 2:39 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-29-2008 3:19 PM cavediver has replied
 Message 167 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-29-2008 3:29 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 168 of 265 (487293)
10-29-2008 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by AlphaOmegakid
10-29-2008 3:19 PM


Re: More anecdotal Evidence
And why did you crop and lighten your image just to make another wild anecdotal claim?
I haven't touched the colour, intensity, or anything. The Pixel colour values are exactly as in the original. Simply copied into Paint to cut out the area of interest. When you zoom in on an image, that is what happens!! And what is anecdotal about my claim. I am showing YOUR image to YOU and asking for clarification. Do you know what anecdotal means?
And what difference if the image is lightened (and it is not) - how will that possibly change the observed location of the maximum intensity of the halo??? Or even the outer edge of the halo? When I get a moment I will present a whole range of intensities for the region of interest.
If you look at the original photo I posted which the color wasn't alterred
This one...
you will see that the only place you could possibly make a diametrical measurement with a measuring microscope would be across the 2 oclock and 8 o'clock areas. If you look closely at those areas the cirlce is a perfect match to the ring.
"is a perfect match" at 2 o'clcok and 8 o'clock??? Are you sure??? Your circle is blatently well outside the halo.
Here's my closeup again with no alteration:
Why is your autocad circle so far outside the halo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-29-2008 3:19 PM AlphaOmegakid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by AlphaOmegakid, posted 10-29-2008 4:12 PM cavediver has replied

  
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