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Author Topic:   polonium halos
Phydeaux
Junior Member (Idle past 4431 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 11-17-2009


Message 241 of 265 (499917)
02-21-2009 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by lyx2no
02-21-2009 10:13 AM


Re: The Lord Equal Darkness
coloration is not uniform; your discrimination is.
Someone somewhere in a speciation topic has a nice gradient diagram running from red to yellow. The question being where does red end and yellow begin. Imagine curling the image into a ring. The eye almost automatically finds the center of either the red or the yellow areas by equalizing the orange to either side. Conversely, the eye seems to fight against one if one tries to locate the center of either orange band. And no two people will be able to agree on this as different people have different sensitivities to these colors. Everyone, however, has exactly the same sensitivity to these colors as themselves. So everyone balances the orange bands of opposite side equally; therefore picking the same middles for the red and yellow bands.

I see the area of uncertainty being wider as to the center of the band than the outer band. Why you guys can't see that; I don't know


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Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2009 10:58 AM You replied
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2872 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 242 of 265 (499919)
02-21-2009 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phydeaux
02-21-2009 10:48 AM


Re: The Lord Equal Darkness
I see the area of uncertainty being wider as to the center of the band than the outer band.

Irrelevant even if true, and it's not. The centre of the band can be determined by visible features - the visible intensity variation. The visible "edge" is simply where the extent of the band can no longer be determined from the background signal in this particular photograph. Thus your edge is a function of the photographic image and the band, where-as the maximum is independent of the image.

This is irrlevant, because it is the maximum that coincides with the theoretical penetration distances. The broadening of the band (into a gaussian) is caused by numerous effects, but primarily the none-point-like (extended) nature of the source. This should be obvious to anyone wanting to discuss this topic. If Gentry argued that the measurements should be to the outer-most *visibile* extent of the ring, then he better have a damn good explanation for why - claiming ease or "greater accuracy" is idiocy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phydeaux, posted 02-21-2009 10:48 AM Phydeaux has replied

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 65 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 243 of 265 (499923)
02-21-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phydeaux
02-21-2009 10:48 AM


Re: The Lord Equal Darkness
Phydeaux writes:

I see the area of uncertainty being wider as to the center of the band than the outer band. Why you guys can't see that; I don't know

Mathematics, scientific integrity, honesty?

Pick one or all.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3945 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 244 of 265 (499943)
02-21-2009 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phydeaux
02-21-2009 10:48 AM


The Lord of Equal Darkness
I see the area of uncertainty being wider as to the center of the band than the outer band. Why you guys can't see that; I don't know

When one is guessing the edge of the color band, what one is actually doing is making a determination of ones ability to detect the color as having ended. Disregarding a propensity to second guess oneself —"I think I see a tinge of red, but maybe I'm imagining it." — it's still limited by ones color resolution.

Going back to our colored ring: Say the ring has a comfortable circumference of 30 cm. Using a 1 cm wide window slide it along the band. At every point on the band the window will show more red at one extreme and more yellow at the other with two exceptions: when the window is centered over the Max Red or over the Max Yellow; there, both extremes will be equally orange. The 1 cm width for the window can be reduced to three times the width of ones color resolution with the same effect, reducing the problem to ones ability to resolve the center of ones window — even beyond ones color resolution. (Reducing the width of the window to dw looks like there might be a calculus problem in there somewhere.)

AbE: Speaking of resolution: this technicality needs to be resolved soon so the topic can resume — pretty please.

Edited by lyx2no, : Allowing me a return to lurkerhood.


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phydeaux, posted 02-21-2009 10:48 AM Phydeaux has replied

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Phydeaux
Junior Member (Idle past 4431 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 11-17-2009


Message 245 of 265 (499962)
02-21-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by cavediver
02-21-2009 10:58 AM


Re: The Lord Equal Darkness
The centre of the band can be determined by visible features - the visible intensity variation. The visible "edge" is simply where the extent of the band can no longer be determined from the background signal in this particular photograph. Thus your edge is a function of the photographic image and the band, where-as the maximum is independent of the image.

That does not matter because the edge of visibility will still be the same all around the ring. If you ever look at a bell curve, you will realize that the top is not a sharp point. It is a wide area which is relatively flat.

Edited by Phydeaux, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Phydeaux
Junior Member (Idle past 4431 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 11-17-2009


Message 246 of 265 (499963)
02-21-2009 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by lyx2no
02-21-2009 2:01 PM


Re: The Lord of Equal Darkness
When one is guessing the edge of the color band, what one is actually doing is making a determination of ones ability to detect the color as having ended. Disregarding a propensity to second guess oneself —"I think I see a tinge of red, but maybe I'm imagining it." — it's still limited by ones color resolution.

What I am saying is that the determination doesn't really make that much of a difference compared to the thickness of the "maximum."

Edited by Phydeaux, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3945 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 247 of 265 (499975)
02-21-2009 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Phydeaux
02-21-2009 4:43 PM


That's Different Then
I took you to mean:
Well, first of all you didn't line up the circles correctly… Line up the circles incorrectly, and you get the wrong calibration.

Which isn't contradicted by:

I see the area of uncertainty being wider as to the center of the band than the outer band. Why you guys can't see that; I don't know

But if what you meant was:

What I am saying is that the determination doesn't really make that much of a difference compared to the thickness of the "maximum."

then I stand corrected. Thanks for disillusioning me.

Now I'm just confused.

Ab2E: Hi cavediver. You've never seen a bell curve? I'd have thought you would have with all that math stuff you do.

Edited by lyx2no, : Formating

Edited by lyx2no, : No reason given.


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Phydeaux, posted 02-21-2009 4:43 PM Phydeaux has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2009 6:26 PM lyx2no has replied
 Message 253 by Phydeaux, posted 02-21-2009 11:12 PM lyx2no has taken no action

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 2872 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 248 of 265 (499978)
02-21-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Phydeaux
02-21-2009 4:41 PM


Re: The Lord Equal Darkness
That does not matter because the edge of visibility will still be the same all around the ring.

The edge of visibility may well be the same all the way around - so what? How does that change the fact that the edge radius will be a function of the image reproduction :rolleyes: Are you actually understanding anything that you are being told?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Phydeaux, posted 02-21-2009 4:41 PM Phydeaux has replied

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2872 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 249 of 265 (499982)
02-21-2009 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by Phydeaux
02-21-2009 4:43 PM


Re: The Lord of Equal Darkness
What I am saying is that the determination doesn't really make that much of a difference compared to the thickness of the "maximum."

:laugh: why do you think you are still posting??? - because you have come up with different results to RAZD's and my own - THAT is how much of a difference it is. And your attempts to measure are woeful. When the measurements are made with reasonable care, it is obvious that the radon circle is there. Funny how both you, Alphaomegakid before you, and Gentry at the beginning - all measure to the outside edge with complete disregard to the physics, just so you can all try to claim that the radon circle is not there. Now, let me think... are there are any pertinent idealogies that all three of you share that may want you all to believe that there is no radon ring?? :laugh:


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cavediver
Member (Idle past 2872 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 250 of 265 (499984)
02-21-2009 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by lyx2no
02-21-2009 6:07 PM


Re: That's Different Then
Ab2E: Hi cavediver. You've never seen a bell curve? I'd have thought you would have with all that math stuff you do.

I'm a fucking astrophysicst (on top of everything else) - do you want me to try and guess how many absorption/emission gaussian lines I've measured (not to mention photographed, extracted, resolved, fitted, etc) in my life? And here I am arguing with yet another cretin who thinks he knows what he's talking about.

Your predecessor would never have doubted be so... I'm hurt, lyx2no, hurt I tell you ;)

Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by lyx2no, posted 02-21-2009 6:07 PM lyx2no has replied

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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3945 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 251 of 265 (499985)
02-21-2009 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by cavediver
02-21-2009 6:26 PM


Re: That's Different Then
Your predecessor would never have doubted be so... I'm hurt, lyx2no, hurt I tell you

I've a cruel-streak all my own. Ha-ha-ha… (Does the look like an evil laugh to you? It doesn't look evil to me. Distinctly not evil.)


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by cavediver, posted 02-21-2009 6:26 PM cavediver has taken no action

  
CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 252 of 265 (499993)
02-21-2009 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by cavediver
02-21-2009 6:22 PM


Radon RIng Found Polonium Ring Gone?
Hi cavediver,
quick question: I've not been up on this thread since its start, have read a bunch of it and still have tons of questions.

How does imprecisely measuring the position of the rings "remove" the Radon ring?

Edited by CosmicChimp, : No reason given.


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Phydeaux
Junior Member (Idle past 4431 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 11-17-2009


Message 253 of 265 (500010)
02-21-2009 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by lyx2no
02-21-2009 6:07 PM


Re: That's Different Then
All I am saying is that the ring is more like this:


Click to enlarge

Yellow being the rock, red being the ring, and the orange being the part you claim is uncertain. So, in this case, which is more accurate; measuring the edge, or measuring the maximum point (point LOL) of coloration? If you can't see that the rings are like that in picture of the polonium halo that is all distorted which they like to measure, look at this one:

The halo they are measuring has smaller rings, but the same problems.


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Replies to this message:
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Phydeaux
Junior Member (Idle past 4431 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 11-17-2009


Message 254 of 265 (500013)
02-21-2009 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by cavediver
02-21-2009 6:14 PM


Re: The Lord Equal Darkness
The edge of visibility may well be the same all the way around - so what? How does that change the fact that the edge radius will be a function of the image reproduction Are you actually understanding anything that you are being told?

I understand what you are saying. What is important is that the actual distance between the rings is measured, and that the center of the circles placed over it is the actual radio center. If you measure from the edge of the ring, it will be the same distance between them as the actual maximum of the actual polonium ring. Other wise, there is a wide area of uncertainty which can lead to the ridiculous idea that Gentry put a picture of a halo in his book which has evidence of a radon ring.

Edited by Phydeaux, : No reason given.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 633 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 255 of 265 (500021)
02-22-2009 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by Phydeaux
02-21-2009 4:24 AM


Fresh Pictures using Gentry Radii
Hi Phydeaux,

I've finally got some down-time to use answeringyour several question on this thread.

Message 236

Btw, why are we using this photograph? It is definitely not the one with the clearest rings.

(1) because this particular picture does show the same kind of distinction visible on the 235U halo for distinction between 222Rn and 210Po (see the yellow boxes)::


Click to enlarge

(2) because it is one of the few halos in Flourite, the same crystal as the 235U halo where we can distinguish between the 222Rn and 210Po rings, and

(3) the rings are different diameters in different cyrstals, so to compare it to the 235U rings, we must use a halo in Flourite.

(4) the rings in Flourite are larger than the ones in Biotite, so there is better ability to measure small differences.

First I wanted to say that I realize it would be preferable to measure from the center, but how can know what is the center from this photograph?

We can match the rings to the published data, and then adjust the scale of the picture until we get a good fit for all rings on the 235U halo.

Once we have done this, then we look to matching the polonium halo in the same manner for the two outer rings - rings that are not disputed - and see what we see for the inner rings.

We start with the 238U decay chain:


Click to enlarge

Then we select only the α decay events on the main decay sequence, and sort them from small to large, and add the radius data from Schilling (S) and Gentry (G) to derive a valid average value for each isotope:


Click to enlarge

From this we can draw theoretical circles to exactly match the published data:


Click to enlarge

This shows the α energy on the right, the halo radii on the left. I've also shown the curve of correlation between these values on the right, and I note that this is not a smooth curve, so there are irregularities in the data, but I've used this to project radii for 230Th and 234U inside the 226Ra circle.

The next stage is to find the center of the halo and the scale of the pictures. To do this I used the simple approach that three points on the circumference define a circle, so I established 3 points on the 218Po ring, drew my circle through them and then scaled them, the circle and the picture so that the radius of the circle was 23.5. These are shown in green on the picture, while the red circles are the other α decay rings for 238U in Flourite.

Here is the 238U Halo:


Click to enlarge

Here is the 222Rn Halo:


Click to enlarge

There is no question that there is damage visible outside the 210Po circle, and that some of the visible damage is outside the 222Rn circle. This should not be the case if there were no 222Rn in the halo.

However, just to be sure I rescaled the picture by 19.4/20.0 - half the distance between the 210Po and the 222Rn circles, so that you could argue that it was all 210Po with no 222Rn -- except that the two outer circles BOTH miss the halo rings for these isotopes:


Click to enlarge

The 218Po halo scales at 22.8 μm not 23.5 μm and the 214Po halo scales at 33.5 μm instead of 34.6 μm, and this clearly is NOT a match to the rings in the picture, so the inner rings cannot be forced to eliminate 222Rn from being in the picture without also missing the two outer rings.

To conclude: the picture originally has the appearance of two rings at the locations for 210Po and 222Rn, and when the rings are measured, the results accurately measure the outer rings at 34.6 μm for the 214Po ring and 23.5 μm for the 218Po ring, and there is visible damage beyond the 222Rn circle at 20.5 μm, while in the visible gap areas of the picture, the inner damage lines up with the 210Po circle.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : minor correction: I used 19.4 rather than 19.5 for 210Po as that is the average value between Schindler and Gentry for this ring.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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