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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 676 of 1486 (823553)
11-12-2017 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by starman
11-10-2017 12:01 PM


Topic Starter Remix
starman, to ringo writes:

You are not here to debate but to air hatred of God and Christians.

And his post #666 is proof!

Seriously, though lets regroup. Here is the topic starter again:

quote:
There seems to be a major point of disagreement amongst those proposing a Y.E.C. model of life's history. On the one hand, some propose widespread and rapid evolution, including speciation (within "kinds") after the flood, while others deny that such things can happen. So, does the model require this speciation, especially considering that space on the Ark was limited? And how does it happen? Are beneficial mutations involved?
Let's discuss the model, which seems to be in need of a major update.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by starman, posted 11-10-2017 12:01 PM starman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2017 2:03 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 682 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:33 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 685 of 1486 (826951)
01-15-2018 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by creation
01-14-2018 11:33 PM


Re: Topic Starter Remix
Hello, creation. When you say "what nature" do you have a hypothesis or belief as to what natures there are? How many? Just curious....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:33 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by creation, posted 01-15-2018 1:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 728 of 1486 (827249)
01-21-2018 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by creation
01-21-2018 2:08 PM


Re: Imaginary magic time flux
One needs to do more than believe it was the same and call that science, no?

What do you propose? alternative science?

One of your points which you wish to emphasize is that science is a belief.

Do you see the counter-argument? In order to be a good debater, it is always helpful to see the reasoning that your opponent uses.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:08 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by creation, posted 01-21-2018 2:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 734 by dwise1, posted 01-21-2018 3:58 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 768 of 1486 (827648)
01-29-2018 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 765 by jar
01-28-2018 6:48 PM


Re: posts like creation's are valuable
jar writes:

You can still be a Christian without leaving your brain at the door.

Yes, but can you be a Christian while believing in a vague unknowable God?
Or are you more properly a Deist?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 765 by jar, posted 01-28-2018 6:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 771 by jar, posted 01-29-2018 10:22 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(2)
Message 1035 of 1486 (842966)
11-11-2018 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1033 by creation
11-11-2018 1:24 PM


Re: Many floods, but no World Wide Flood
We do know all the mountains will be flattened one day by the bible. The history in that book deals with man and God. Not detailed physical geology.
One could argue that the main point is our relationship with God and with each other. Whether God flattens mountains or spins straw into gold has no bearing on our relationship with Him.
What I want to know from Creationists (Faith in particular) is how they answer the question of no observable genetic bottleneck amongst all living (and dead) creatures. This would naturally be present in the context of a global flood.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1033 by creation, posted 11-11-2018 1:24 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1040 by edge, posted 11-11-2018 2:26 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1042 by Faith, posted 11-11-2018 4:23 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1057 by creation, posted 11-13-2018 12:00 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 1060 by creation, posted 11-13-2018 12:03 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1036 of 1486 (842967)
11-11-2018 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1030 by creation
11-11-2018 1:15 PM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
You show a picture of tree rings from 50 BC? Ha. You are defeated.
Just out of curiosity, whom do you imagine is defeating whom? Is it God vs Scientists? Truth vs Lies?
Reality vs Fantasy?
or is it only a poster named creation challenging another poster? We need to define the goalposts and the game rules.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1030 by creation, posted 11-11-2018 1:15 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1054 by creation, posted 11-13-2018 11:57 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1086 of 1486 (843341)
11-16-2018 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1085 by creation
11-16-2018 12:35 PM


Re: Prometheus evidence vs fantasy, Prometheus 4 fantasy 0
Sounds to me that you are simply looking for validations of your preconceived belief anyway.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1085 by creation, posted 11-16-2018 12:35 PM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1098 by creation, posted 11-17-2018 1:44 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1205 of 1486 (844108)
11-25-2018 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1191 by creation
11-25-2018 3:16 AM


Re: Correlation validation by Egyptian Chronology
creation writes:

Some of the earmarks of the great flood of Noah were that all animals and people on earth, save those on the ark all died. That qualifies as a great extinction if ever anything ever did! The water also came from space and below the earth and that is where science says iridium also comes from.

One of the points made in these forums that brings up questions in my mind is jars "bottleneck thesis"...
jar writes:

Here is the detailed description of the first argument (the genetic bottleneck).

In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:

quote:
19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:

quote:
2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:

quote:
7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

and in Genesis 7:

quote:
4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.

If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.

Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).

Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.

We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.

BUT...

If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.

Talk about a big RED flag.

That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticist in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Year's Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.

So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.

If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.

How is any creationist going to challenge that? (Apart from some magical explanation?)

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1191 by creation, posted 11-25-2018 3:16 AM creation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1216 by creation, posted 11-27-2018 5:08 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1426 of 1486 (879359)
07-15-2020 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1425 by dad
07-15-2020 10:00 AM


Re: Options Schmoptians
dad writes:

Your choice to believe something is your own option. Not science.

Given that your argument insists that evolution(ism) is a belief, how does what you offer be defined any less as a belief? If we cant agree on the evidence, is not everything we discuss basically a belief? I cant really see you claiming the high ground of facts when your "facts" are as disputed as their "facts".

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1425 by dad, posted 07-15-2020 10:00 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1428 by dad, posted 07-15-2020 11:45 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15442
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 1481 of 1486 (879869)
07-23-2020 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1479 by dad
07-23-2020 4:32 PM


Re: stop the denial
I'm about done with you. The onus is on you to provide counter evidence to the already accepted scientific evidence that makes up the mainstream. If you have none, you wont get a soapbox any longer. I will start with one day suspensions. End of story. Good day.

EvC Forum ⇒ All Forums ⇒ Science Forums ⇒ Dates and Dating ⇒ Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 ⇒ Reply

If you come across to the Social and religious issues group of Forums, you can get away with no objective evidence, though trust me you will still get challenged. In the Science Forums, however, there needs to be objective evidence.

dad writes:

The laws out there are not under discussion. Time is. Space it. Not laws. The only place nature and laws come into the discussion are on earth in the far past. Focus.

There are no other methods with which to attempt to define the far past.

And once again for the final time---the onus is on you to provide counter evidence, not on others to provide validation for science already validated.


"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
“We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.”- Francis A. Schaeffer

“The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killosophy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1479 by dad, posted 07-23-2020 4:32 PM dad has not yet responded

  
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