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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 1486 (653978)
02-25-2012 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Pollux
02-25-2012 1:31 AM


Re: Re True Believers? I think not.
the idea that you might have been wrong all along could be too painful to contemplate, so you shut your ears to any disturbing evidence.

I think you've hit on part of the problem, but I think the reality is a bit more fundamental. I don't think YEC believers, in general, know much science to begin with. Some YECs even wear their ignorance as some kind of Christian merit badge. It is pretty easy to dismiss scientific examples, when you don't understand the nature of the evidence for them, particularly when the alternative is the destruction of your potentially eternal soul.

Quite frankly, the fundamental reason, in my opinion, is a failure of the very faith that YECs claim to have. In essence, YECs seem to believe that if a single part of the Bible cannot to be taken literally in the most extreme sense, that even their salvation through Jesus Christ cannot be correct. Yet no one would ever read any other work in quite the way a YEC reads the Bible.

I've heard pastors suggest that the Bible is the ultimate science text, and usually those pastors cite some passage of the Bible that can be stretched to match some scientific truth. Well I read the Bible cover to cover annually, and I've never seen anything that would allow me to determine the equations of motion for a Foucault pendulum using Lagrangian mechanics, so I generally simply ignore such claims.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Pollux, posted 02-25-2012 1:31 AM Pollux has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Pollux, posted 02-25-2012 7:11 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 122 of 1486 (663788)
05-26-2012 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 5:58 PM


Re: Decay constants
That's the complete opposite of what Randy Isaac said the report concluded. To me that looks pretty dishonest to misinterpret the report like that. You really should double-check these assertions from now on because that's a pretty good example of dishonest misinterpretation of a paper right there.

Au contraire, hasty one.

As a matter of fact, the quote by Randy Isaac is entirely consistent with the larger quote you provide. Both quot4es acknowledge 500 million years of radioactive decay at today's rates. Randy goes on to suggest that some creationists had previously argued that there had been less decay even based on current decay rates.

Surely you noticed the phrase "at today's rates" in both references.

Of course the quote you provided from the RATE report does not even address that suggestion in the second sentence, and Randy Isaac made no claim that his second sentence was lifted from the report. So the question is whether or not the second statement is true. Note that the second statement refers to creationist claims made prior to the RATE project.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 5:58 PM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 134 of 1486 (663808)
05-26-2012 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 7:48 PM


Re: decay rate change and correlations
1) I just explained in Message 124 how all your points fall into 3 categories, Dendrochronology, Radiometric Dating, and Depositional Rates, and are explainable through a Pre-Flood Canopy and Global Flood.
(2) Concerning the Dendrochronologies, the oldest tree we have dates under 5,000 years. And that's assuming rings were dated correctly at a year apiece. The cross-dating becomes speculative as it depends on their correct analysis of a pattern existing. According to your Message 2:

No Jzyehoshua, you did not explain the correlation.

With respect to dendrochronologies, you merely said that it would be affected by a Pre-Flood Canopy, but you did not explain how. In fact, I cannot see how it would be explained away. In order to defeat the one year equals one ring observation, you need to explain how multiple rings get put down in a year. If you think a flood canopy will do this, you need to explain how.

You claim the C-14 levels were affected, but even a 5000 year correlation with dendrochronology is evidence that you are wrong and that a flood never occurred during that period.

In short, you at least owe us a mechanism. That would be one step above the handwaving you are doing now.

Obviously if they just pick and choose 2 similar rings for two 4,000 year old trees they can claim trees of similar ages show a 7,000 or 8,000 year history, even if the trees grew at approximately the same time. Their analysis needs to be double-checked to show the pattern was indeed reliable.

Let's be for real. No matter what review had been done in the past, you would ask for more double-checking. You had no idea who checked what when you posted this.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 7:48 PM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 8:27 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 136 of 1486 (663817)
05-26-2012 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 8:27 PM


Re: decay rate change and correlations
I suppose I should be more specific than I was, sorry about that. In a more tropical environment, I question whether the summer/winter cycles would exist the same way, and thus whether multiple rings could be put down in a single year.

Is that supposed to be more specific?

You aren't coming anywhere near suggesting how this might work. You want to postulate multiple growing seasons in a year, but you are leaving it up to my imagination to figure out how that could have happened.

This is your scenario. You made up the explanation, so you should be telling us how it works.

NoNukes writes:

Let's be for real. No matter what review had been done in the past, you would ask for more double-checking. You had no idea who checked what when you posted this.


Jzyehoshua writes:

Really, I would like to check it myself.

If that is your position, then perhaps you should do the checking before you assert that the scientists are wrong.

The funny part of this is that we are just messing around with dating methods that are good for 50k years or so. The earth is 4.5+ billion years old.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 8:27 PM Jzyehoshua has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 9:00 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 141 of 1486 (663830)
05-26-2012 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Jzyehoshua
05-26-2012 9:00 PM


Re: decay rate change and correlations
Which raises another question - does the Bible say the earth itself is young? Genesis 1:2 says the earth was empty and void. The solar day apparently didn't exist until the 4th day when the sun and planets were created so any length of time could've passed earlier.

There's a reason I'm not debating the age of the earth but the age of life's beginning on earth specifically.

You'd have to ask a Bible literalist about that. I don't believe that the earth as a planet predates the existence of the sun. Perhaps the earth being void and without form is a poetic expression describing the disk of gas and supernova dust from which the solar system was formed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Jzyehoshua, posted 05-26-2012 9:00 PM Jzyehoshua has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 1486 (672649)
09-10-2012 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by RAZD
09-09-2012 1:33 PM


Re: another, better, thread for Jzyehoshua to explain the scam issue/s
I don't think this is fair to poster J. If he thinks there is a refutation of dating here, he ought to have the opportunity to make his case. At the very least he is owed a discussion of why the emails don't really challenge dating.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2012 1:33 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by JonF, posted 09-10-2012 12:22 PM NoNukes has responded
 Message 194 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2012 1:10 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 1486 (672739)
09-10-2012 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by JonF
09-10-2012 12:22 PM


Re: another, better, thread for Jzyehoshua to explain the scam issue/s
he simple explanation is that none of the methods mentioned in the emails he posted are dating methods.

What about the J's comments related to dendrochronology? I think those are comments are related to dating.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by JonF, posted 09-10-2012 12:22 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by JonF, posted 09-11-2012 11:35 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 1486 (672741)
09-10-2012 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by RAZD
09-10-2012 1:10 PM


Re: another, better, thread for Jzyehoshua to explain the scam issue/s
Challenge the dating here yes, pursue the scam aspect no - that is better under the other existing scam thread.

J suggests that the tree ring data appears to correlate with other aging data because the tree ring data is phony. If that proposition is off topic here, then the scope of the discussion on age correlations is extremely narrow.

I don't believe J can make his case, but I think compartmentalizing objections so that only certain types of arguments can be made in this thread is the wrong way to go about it.

But it occurs to me that I am way too meta to be on topic, so I'll knock it off.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2012 1:10 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by RAZD, posted 09-11-2012 9:40 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 1486 (672810)
09-11-2012 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by JonF
09-11-2012 11:35 AM


Re: another, better, thread for Jzyehoshua to explain the scam issue/s
Read 'em carefully; they are relating to using tree rings as climate indicators (drought, ...) rather than chronology.

That may indeed be all that can be shown from the emails, but here is what J says about them:

Jazzy Jeff writes:

Dendrochronology, coral, and ice core dating are all admitted by those at the heart of the Climategate scandal to be weak, unreliable methods.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by JonF, posted 09-11-2012 11:35 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by JonF, posted 09-11-2012 8:09 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 227 of 1486 (688362)
01-22-2013 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 5:43 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
It only makes sense that a flood would have wiped out all vegetation, dropping atmospheric strength, thereby artificially increasing the proportion of carbon in the atmosphere for the first centuries after the flood.

Whoa dude. This conclusion is not intuitively obvious. Explain how anything survived in this hundred years of weak atmosphere. I assume you mean that the atmosphere became oxygen deficient. How does this lack of oxygen force affect the carbon incorporated into living tissue? Where did the oxygen present before the flood go anyway? It's not like there were lots of oxygen breathers around or that matter, much metabolic activity given the small number of plants and animals. Are you suggesting that for some reason the recovery of plants was well below that of animal life? What tells you that? How did an ecology ever get started under those conditions?

Also, remember the effect you are trying to achieve is not just an error, but an error that results in ages that are too great. It appears to me that you are producing errors in the opposite direction. You should be telling us why there was far less carbon in the atmosphere than we expect. You

Carbon dating is only known to be accurate over about 2500 years,

Pure wishful thinking on your part. But in any event your propensity to simply make stuff up seems infinitely great. I expect you will be trying again.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 5:43 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 228 of 1486 (688363)
01-22-2013 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 6:04 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
I have been looking around the internet for over a year, hoping for some evidence that a gene can duplicate, and then produce a novel function in the duplicated coding gene that adds fitness. Haven't seen it yet, this basic process of evolution remains unproven. Without it we would just have bacteria on earth, mutating and evolving into alternative forms but never gaining in complexity.

Where did you look? We can see the patterns left behind from such a process in our own DNA.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 6:04 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 6:36 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 1486 (688374)
01-22-2013 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 6:36 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
nly under evolutionary assumptions can you see these patterns. That is circular reasoning.

Wrong. The patterns are there. You can deny their interpretation, but they are there.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 6:36 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 8:43 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 239 of 1486 (688380)
01-22-2013 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 7:45 AM


Plants will increase photosynthesis under increased pressures, absorbing more carbon 14 in the process, and absorb less under low pressures. Thus it is based on assumed consistency of air pressures. Carbon 14 dating is also based on assumed consistency in atmospheric carbon production.

You are talking nonsense. Your story does not hold together.

First, you did not propose an increase in carbon pressure. You proposed a relative increase in the percentage of carbon due to a depletion of some other component, presumably oxygen. But you have not proposed an effect that would cause the partial pressure of carbon dioxide to change at all. Accordingly, this would not produce the effect you are looking for.

Secondly, increasing the amount of C-14 produces dates that would appear more recent rather than deeper in the past. Dates we think to be 10,000 years in the past due to their small amounts of detected C14 would actually be much older. How is this helpful to your argument?

Thirdly, we actually do have air samples of past atmospheres and no one has found any evidence of the atmosphere you describe. You are talking loud and saying nothing.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 7:45 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 8:38 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 1486 (688385)
01-22-2013 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 8:38 AM


I do admit when I get things incorrect and appreciate a good logical answer.

So why did you continue to argue the point?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 8:38 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 243 of 1486 (688386)
01-22-2013 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by mindspawn
01-22-2013 8:43 AM


Re: Another bump for mindspawn
Could you show me your workings please? Any links showing how academics reach their conclusions?

Do we have a disagreement that the patterns relating genetic differences to functionality exist or is our disagreement merely that you think the patterns have an explanation other than evolution?

Quite frankly, this is all beside the point which is this. I do not believe you've made a meaningful year long search for evidence that evolutionary processes can produce new functionality because you are not capable of recognizing such evidence.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by mindspawn, posted 01-22-2013 8:43 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by RAZD, posted 01-22-2013 10:27 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
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