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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
dad
Member
Posts: 247
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1276 of 1422 (876824)
05-29-2020 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1272 by RAZD
07-12-2019 5:30 PM


Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
Or if tree rings in the past grew fast, as well as rapid magnetic reversals and changes, they would not tie anything in the way your beliefs infer.

Edited by dad, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1272 by RAZD, posted 07-12-2019 5:30 PM RAZD has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1278 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 8:52 AM dad has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6155
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1277 of 1422 (876831)
05-29-2020 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1275 by dad
05-29-2020 2:33 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Bare assertions are not evidence or reasoned argumentation,and will be ignored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:33 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 6155
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1278 of 1422 (876832)
05-29-2020 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1276 by dad
05-29-2020 2:35 AM


Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
And if invisible space walruses created the universe and the appearance of history last Thursday, all bets are off.

Please restrict yourself to claims for which there is evidence and present that evidence, as required by the forum guidelines you agreed to when you signed up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:35 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1280 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 11:32 AM JonF has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 247
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1279 of 1422 (876837)
05-29-2020 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1277 by JonF
05-29-2020 8:48 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Exactly. Any assertions trees did not grow fast as the record in Scripture indicates will be ignored unless proven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 8:48 AM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1281 by ringo, posted 05-29-2020 12:17 PM dad has responded
 Message 1282 by Coragyps, posted 05-29-2020 12:32 PM dad has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 247
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1280 of 1422 (876838)
05-29-2020 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1278 by JonF
05-29-2020 8:52 AM


Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
I will if you do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 8:52 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1283 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 12:41 PM dad has responded
 Message 1296 by Admin, posted 05-30-2020 12:08 PM dad has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18360
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1281 of 1422 (876842)
05-29-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by dad
05-29-2020 11:31 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

Any assertions trees did not grow fast as the record in Scripture indicates...


That's like saying, "Prove there are no unicorns."

You have it backwards. If you make a positive claim - e.g. trees grew fast - then YOU are the one who has to provide evidence.

dad writes:

...will be ignored unless proven.


You've already ignored a lot to get to your current position.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1279 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 11:31 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1284 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:55 PM ringo has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5515
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 1282 of 1422 (876848)
05-29-2020 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by dad
05-29-2020 11:31 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Hi, dad! Welcome aboard!

Those rudists are the rudest, aren’t they? Contradicting your claims of fast-growing trees in Genesis! The nerve! Which verses say that? I don’t remember......


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1279 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 11:31 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 6155
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1283 of 1422 (876850)
05-29-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1280 by dad
05-29-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
I will if you do

No problem. I always restrict. myself to claims for which there is evidence and present that evidence.

But you obviously won't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1280 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 11:32 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
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dad
Member
Posts: 247
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1284 of 1422 (876855)
05-29-2020 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1281 by ringo
05-29-2020 12:17 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
I agree that saying nature in the past was the same is like saying there were unicorns here.
The positive science claim is that nature was the same and so that therefore tree rings represent the same length of time taken for trees to grow now.
I will use the historical default position that the record in the bible is true until and unless you can support your positive claims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1281 by ringo, posted 05-29-2020 12:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1287 by ringo, posted 05-29-2020 4:27 PM dad has responded
 Message 1288 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 5:13 PM dad has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 247
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1285 of 1422 (876856)
05-29-2020 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1283 by JonF
05-29-2020 12:41 PM


Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
Great.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1283 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 12:41 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 247
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1286 of 1422 (876858)
05-29-2020 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Coragyps
05-29-2020 12:32 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
What is a rudist? They wear clothes, I hope?

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18360
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1287 of 1422 (876864)
05-29-2020 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1284 by dad
05-29-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

The positive science claim is that nature was the same and so that therefore tree rings represent the same length of time taken for trees to grow now.


And that is the reality until you can show evidence that it was otherwise.

dad writes:

I will use the historical default position that the record in the bible is true....


That is not the default position. Historically, there have been many flood stories which do not agree with each other. You can not just pick one as the "default".

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:55 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1289 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:10 PM ringo has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6155
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 1288 of 1422 (876867)
05-29-2020 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1284 by dad
05-29-2020 2:55 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
The positive science claim is that nature was the same and so that therefore tree rings represent the same length of time taken for trees to grow now.

Missing or extra rings are prevalent in some species, occasional in most species, and very rare in some species. Examples of the latter are bristlecone pines, Douglas fir, and oak. Dendrochronologists use only samples from such trees.

But the easiest way to demonstrate is a concept no YEC has ever even tried to address; consilience, or the agreement between several independent data sets.From Radiocarbon calibration curve spanning 0 to 50,000 years BP based on paired 230Th/ 234U/ 238U and 14C dates on pristine corals (click the images to make them larger):


(Speleothems are stalactites and stalagmites. Suigetsu and Cariaco are annually-laid varves on a lake or sea floor. Lisan is uranium-thorium disequilibrium dating of carbonates in a dead sea. New Guinea is uranium-thorium disequilibrium dating of coral. PS 2644 is annual layers in an ice core combined with carbon-14 dating of foraminifera in a deep-sea -bottom core.)

From the same reference, here's a plot covering less time, on which it's esier to se the agreement between tree rings and other methods:

The horizontal axis is years before present as measured by the methods listed in the box. The vertical axis is years before present as measured on the same sample by carbon-14 dating. If all the methods agreed exactly, the data points would lie exactly on the 1:1 line shown. The fact that they don't is useful but the subject for another topic.

But the data points do obviously cluster along a curve slightly below and to the right of the 1:1 line. This clustering is often called "the curves agree".

I tree rings were significantly different in the past, they wouldn't cluster with the other methods. Unless all those other methods are off by the same amount as the tree rings. That would require some major f**king with the fundamental constants of the Universe carefully tuned and coordinated to make all the independent methods off by the same amount, and life as we know it probably couldn't exist in such a Universe.

What's your explanation for the consilience?

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:55 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 1382 by dad, posted 07-06-2020 1:54 PM JonF has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 247
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1289 of 1422 (876875)
05-29-2020 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1287 by ringo
05-29-2020 4:27 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Since science cooked up a new origins story, the creation story may not be the default in some circles. However, science claims must be supported in ways other than beliefs.

The main story of Noah and the flood has not changed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1287 by ringo, posted 05-29-2020 4:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member
Posts: 6155
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1290 of 1422 (876876)
05-29-2020 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by dad
05-29-2020 7:10 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
science claims must be supported in ways other than beliefs.

Yes, and they are.

Since this forum is a science forum, you are subject to the same constraint. If you don't want to be, you are welcome to post in one of the faith forums.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:10 PM dad has not yet responded

  
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