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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1291 of 1381 (876877)
05-29-2020 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1288 by JonF
05-29-2020 5:13 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
quote:
Missing or extra rings are prevalent in some species, occasional in most species, and very rare in some species. Examples of the latter are bristlecone pines, Douglas fir, and oak. Dendrochronologists use only samples from such trees.

Strawman argument. I do not need any missing rings. The issue is how fast trees grew in the past, not how many rings there are. If a tree grew for example in a few weeks and had 500 rings, we could not count the ring patterns for yearly cycles. Now if you have a positive claim that nature was the same, so that, therefore, trees had to grow at the same rates as today, fine. Present the proof.

Otherwise, the patterns of rings and carbon isotopes cannot be interpreted as you would wish.
They actually had to use to tree rings to calibrate and correct the carbon dating because it was WRONG!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1288 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 5:13 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1292 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 7:42 PM dad has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6135
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1292 of 1381 (876882)
05-29-2020 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1291 by dad
05-29-2020 7:14 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
I do not need any missing rings.

Cute. You skipped right over extra rings. You do need huge heaps of them. For which you haven't provided any evidence or physically possible mechanism.

But like all YECs, you are ducking the important question, about which I was so specific.

You neglected to explain why all those independent methods agree. Snowfall layers, radioactive decay rates of uranium, thorium, and carbon-14 by different mechanisms, tree rings, ice layers, speleothem growth, and varves; all involving different and independent processes, and all would have to be sped up in perfect lock step.

Consilience. The fact that terrifies YECs.

If a tree grew for example in a few weeks and had 500 rings, we could not count the ring patterns for yearly cycles

Unless you have evidence for that actually happening, we'll ignore such unfounded speculation.

They actually had to use to tree rings to calibrate and correct the carbon dating because it was WRONG!

No measurement of any quantity is 100% exact. The curve I posted demonstrates that without any adjustment carbon dating is correct within 10% or less, many many orders of magnitude too small to help you.

As I pointed out, scientists use several different and independent measurements, all of which agree closely enough to falsify your age claims, to increase the accuracy of carbon dating.

The curves agree. If you can't explain why you got nuthin'.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1291 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:14 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1293 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 2:22 AM JonF has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1293 of 1381 (876891)
05-30-2020 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1292 by JonF
05-29-2020 7:42 PM


Your problem: no correlations exist independent of your beliefs.
quote:
Cute. You skipped right over extra rings. You do need huge heaps of them. For which you haven't provided any evidence or physically possible mechanism.

Try to focus, I do not care how many rings there are. There is nothing added or missing. If a tree grew fast it still had rings, they just did not represent the same growing cycle time.

quote:
But like all YECs, you are ducking the important question, about which I was so specific.

You neglected to explain why all those independent methods agree. Snowfall layers, radioactive decay rates of uranium, thorium, and carbon-14 by different mechanisms, tree rings, ice layers, speleothem growth, and varves; all involving different and independent processes, and all would have to be sped up in perfect lock step.


False. I duck nothing. If you use a blue crayon to color all evidences, all evidence will look blue. You use your same nature in the past belief to color all evidence so it looks old to you. Since you use the same belief to color evidences in many areas, they all get colored with your belief. That is the only consilience!

quote:
Unless you have evidence for that actually happening, we'll ignore such unfounded speculation.
Unless you have evidence for a same nature in the past we will ignore slow growth claimss.

quote:
No measurement of any quantity is 100% exact. The curve I posted demonstrates that without any adjustment carbon dating is correct within 10% or less, many many orders of magnitude too small to help you.

Drawing a line or curve has no more meaning than the basis for the drawing. Your belief in a same nature in the past is the only basis, and you project it onto rings and carbon.

quote:
As I pointed out, scientists use several different and independent measurements, all of which agree closely enough to falsify your age claims, to increase the accuracy of carbon dating.
They use ONE belief. They use this on different things. Any agreement is religious pi in the sky that has no reality to it. It is easy to misinterpret ratios, for example in two sets of isotopes and claim some agreement in imaginary time a billion years ago that never existed! Seriously??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1292 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 7:42 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1294 by JonF, posted 05-30-2020 6:03 AM dad has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 6135
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1294 of 1381 (876894)
05-30-2020 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1293 by dad
05-30-2020 2:22 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations exist independent of your beliefs.
Unless you have evidence for a same nature in the past we will ignore slow growth claimss.

I have provided that evidence and explained it in detail. I could explain in more detail, but you obviously wouldn't have any substantive response. You said you would always provide evidence for your claims. We knew that was false when you wrote it, and we have seen that we were right. You're just making up BS as you go along. You are far too ignorant to have any useful or interesting discussion with you.

Bye-bye


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1293 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 2:22 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1301 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:37 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12702
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1295 of 1381 (876904)
05-30-2020 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by dad
05-29-2020 2:33 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

or not.

A bit more detail might be helpful, including quoting the particular portion of the message you're addressing.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:33 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1299 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:33 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12702
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1296 of 1381 (876905)
05-30-2020 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1280 by dad
05-29-2020 11:32 AM


Re: Geomagnetic near-reversal captured in tree rings
dad writes:

I will if you do.

Your last three messages have been one sentence. This is a discussion board, not Twitter.

Participation in the science forums assumes a familiarity with basic science. Threads on specific topics will not be turned into discussions of basic science. They will be kept on topic by moderators.

But even the most basic science or scientific principle can be challenged. Simply propose new topics over at Proposed New Topics.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1280 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 11:32 AM dad has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1297 of 1381 (876906)
05-30-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by dad
05-29-2020 7:10 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

However, science claims must be supported in ways other than beliefs.


And they are supported six ways from Sunday. Have you read this thread at all? If not, you're just speaking from a position of ignorance.

dad writes:

The main story of Noah and the flood has not changed.


That's the problem. It is not open to correction. Its mistakes can never be fixed.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:10 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1302 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:52 PM ringo has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12702
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1298 of 1381 (876907)
05-30-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by dad
05-29-2020 7:10 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

The main story of Noah and the flood has not changed.

I have the same reaction as JonF. Perhaps one of the Social and Religious Issues forums might be better suited for you. For example, take a look at Faith and Belief and Bible Study.

Or you could propose a thread over at Proposed New Topics arguing that the Bible story of creation should be considered scientific.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:10 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1300 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:35 PM Admin has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1299 of 1381 (876912)
05-30-2020 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1295 by Admin
05-30-2020 12:01 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
That was in reply to this post

"There is no evidence of a change in nature,..."

In other words there is no evidence nature was the same. --or not.

Edited by dad, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1295 by Admin, posted 05-30-2020 12:01 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1300 of 1381 (876913)
05-30-2020 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1298 by Admin
05-30-2020 12:13 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Perhaps you and Jonf could do that since it was him who mentioned Noah and how there were many stories that were different about the flood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1298 by Admin, posted 05-30-2020 12:13 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1311 by Admin, posted 05-31-2020 9:13 AM dad has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1301 of 1381 (876914)
05-30-2020 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1294 by JonF
05-30-2020 6:03 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations exist independent of your beliefs.
quote:
I have provided that evidence and explained it in detail
False. You provided a projected belief that you cannot discuss or defend that was used on tree rings and carbon decay, and then put on a graph. That is not evidence of anything except that you have a belief. Sorry if you though that was science in any real sense of the word.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1294 by JonF, posted 05-30-2020 6:03 AM JonF has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1306 by Coragyps, posted 05-30-2020 1:25 PM dad has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1302 of 1381 (876922)
05-30-2020 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1297 by ringo
05-30-2020 12:13 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Yes I read lots in the thread. Beliefs beliefs beliefs presented as something else.
Then the mods step in predictably and cut off opposing belief based ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1297 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1303 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:58 PM dad has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1303 of 1381 (876925)
05-30-2020 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1302 by dad
05-30-2020 12:52 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

Beliefs beliefs beliefs presented as something else.


And yet you can't explain away the correlations.

dad writes:

Then the mods step in predictably and cut off opposing belief based ideas.


Because "ideas" and/or beliefs do not address the correlations.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1302 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:52 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1304 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 1:01 PM ringo has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1304 of 1381 (876927)
05-30-2020 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1303 by ringo
05-30-2020 12:58 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
I explained why using a preset belief (a same nature in the far past on earth) inevitably would yield similar wrong results across the board. Deal with it.

Edited by dad, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1303 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 12:58 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 1:19 PM dad has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1305 of 1381 (876934)
05-30-2020 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1304 by dad
05-30-2020 1:01 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

I explained why using a preset belief (a same nature in the far past on earth) inevitably would yield similar wrong results across the board.


The only "preset belief" here is yours.

And you didn't come anywhere near "explaining" how completely independent methods could come up with exactly the same results.

dad writes:

Deal with it.


You're the one who is trying to deal with hundreds of years of science done by thousands of scientists. Maybe you can fool yourself but you're not fooling anybody else.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1304 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 1:01 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1308 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 5:12 PM ringo has responded
 Message 1322 by dad, posted 06-19-2020 2:22 AM ringo has responded

  
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