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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5511
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1306 of 1381 (876935)
05-30-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1301 by dad
05-30-2020 12:37 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations exist independent of your beliefs.
Dad, please propose a mechanism, any mechanism, in any “former nature” you prefer, in which a tree can or would grow multiple rings every day. How does that happen? Was in winter several times daily back then, and trees shed their leaves on the odd hours?
I’m seriously asking - how does that happen?

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1301 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:37 PM dad has responded

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dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1307 of 1381 (876947)
05-30-2020 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1306 by Coragyps
05-30-2020 1:25 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations exist independent of your beliefs.
It took many years for science to figure out how photosynthesis and growth works here in this nature. Why would you expect them or others to know how it works in a different nature?
That is like saying, how does a tree grow new fruit every month, and a different new fruit on the same tree each month as we are told will happen in the future? No one in science knows. Nor does anyone else today. That doesn't mean we could claim it will never happen.
Same with the record of the past. If people live 1000 years or trees grow in weeks we can't say it did not happen. Nor can we say how it happened. Yet when science claims ancient tree rings or isotope ratios (etc) represent things formed in our present nature, they are saying the things I mentioned could not happen.

If you want to claim that rules of this present nature applied you need to show us that it existed. Not just believe real hard and model the past on those beliefs!


This message is a reply to:
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dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1308 of 1381 (876948)
05-30-2020 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1305 by ringo
05-30-2020 1:19 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
All the science done by any scientist is recent and in this nature. It is your belief and claim it always existed on earth. You cannot support that. So remember never ever ever to call it science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1305 by ringo, posted 05-30-2020 1:19 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1309 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2020 5:23 PM dad has responded
 Message 1312 by ringo, posted 05-31-2020 1:13 PM dad has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1309 of 1381 (876950)
05-30-2020 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1308 by dad
05-30-2020 5:12 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
All the science done by any scientist is recent and in this nature. It is your belief and claim it always existed on earth.

Because we have no reason (evidence) to suppose otherwise. If you have such evidence then present it here.


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1308 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 5:12 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1310 by JonF, posted 05-30-2020 5:37 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
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JonF
Member
Posts: 6135
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1310 of 1381 (876952)
05-30-2020 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1309 by AZPaul3
05-30-2020 5:23 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
And we have a plethora of evidence there have been no changes of the magnitude daddy needs to validate his hallucinations. He's already ignored the evidence I posted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1309 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2020 5:23 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12702
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1311 of 1381 (876960)
05-31-2020 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1300 by dad
05-30-2020 12:35 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

Perhaps you and Jonf could do that since it was him who mentioned Noah and how there were many stories that were different about the flood.

JonF does not mention Noah in Message 1288 that you replied to. There was a great deal of factual information in that post. You ignored all of it.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1300 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 12:35 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1312 of 1381 (876962)
05-31-2020 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1308 by dad
05-30-2020 5:12 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

So remember never ever ever to call it science.


You don't get to define science.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1308 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 5:12 PM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1314 by dad, posted 06-01-2020 3:25 AM ringo has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1313 of 1381 (876978)
06-01-2020 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1311 by Admin
05-31-2020 9:13 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Looking at that post, I ignored nothing. It is all based on a belief in a same nature in the past. Why ignore that? Prove it!

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dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1314 of 1381 (876979)
06-01-2020 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1312 by ringo
05-31-2020 1:13 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
Nor do you get to use beliefs as a definition for science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1312 by ringo, posted 05-31-2020 1:13 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1320 by ringo, posted 06-01-2020 12:36 PM dad has not yet responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 181
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1315 of 1381 (876980)
06-01-2020 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1309 by AZPaul3
05-30-2020 5:23 PM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
No one cares what you believe. You either have evvidence for the same nature in the past that you use in models or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1309 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2020 5:23 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1316 by Tangle, posted 06-01-2020 4:27 AM dad has responded
 Message 1317 by AZPaul3, posted 06-01-2020 6:31 AM dad has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7710
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1316 of 1381 (876988)
06-01-2020 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1315 by dad
06-01-2020 3:26 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
How old is the earth dad? Roughly.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1315 by dad, posted 06-01-2020 3:26 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1321 by dad, posted 06-19-2020 1:39 AM Tangle has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5118
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 1317 of 1381 (876991)
06-01-2020 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1315 by dad
06-01-2020 3:26 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
You either have evvidence for the same nature in the past that you use in models or not.

Of course we do. Our evidence is this:

There is NO evidence that "nature" *did* changed any time in the last 13.7 billion years.

Without there being some evidence of this change you keep going on about why should we just assume it did? Because it makes your evil religious delusions palpable in your tiny little mind?

Rejected.

We say it didn't change because there is no evidence that it did.

You say it changed? Why? Based on what? Show your evidence.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1315 by dad, posted 06-01-2020 3:26 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1318 by jar, posted 06-01-2020 9:31 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1319 by JonF, posted 06-01-2020 9:52 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 1326 by dad, posted 06-21-2020 11:58 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32654
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 1318 of 1381 (876992)
06-01-2020 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1317 by AZPaul3
06-01-2020 6:31 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
A couple specifics that might help the kid learn would be:

The waste products at the Oklo Reactor match the waste products seen in modern reactors.

The reactions observed in distant stars match the reactions seen in our local sun.

I'm not sure the kid is capable of actually understanding but perhaps he might be capable of understanding that change leaves evidence. If things were different in the past we would see the evidence of such changes.

No such evidence has ever been found.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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JonF
Member
Posts: 6135
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 1319 of 1381 (876993)
06-01-2020 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1317 by AZPaul3
06-01-2020 6:31 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
There's quite a bit of evidence for the constancy of radioactive decay rates, which blows young Earth out of the water. Radioactive decay depends on the most fundamental properties of the Universe. If they changed in the past there would be a wide range of detectable side effects. THose side effects aren't there.

Physicist Stever Calip wrote a post on talk.origins some time ago listing some of these side effects. Fron The Constancy of Constants, Part 2*:

quote:
Frankly, physicists are not, for the most part, interested in silly creationist arguments. But they are interested in basic questions such as whether physical constants or laws change in time -- especially if such changes are proposed by such a great physicist as Dirac. As a result, there has been a great deal of experimental effort to search for such changes. A nice (technical) summary is given by Sisterna and Vucetich, Physical Review D41 (1990) 1034 and Physical Review D44 (1991) 3096; a more recent reference is Uzan, Reviews of Modern Physics 75 (2003) 403, available electronically at http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0205340. Among the phenomena they look at are:

  • searches for changes in the radius of Mercury, the Moon, and Mars (these would change because of changes in the strength of interactions within the materials that they are formed from);
  • searches for long term ("secular") changes in the orbits of the Moon and the Earth --- measured by looking at such diverse phenomena as ancient solar eclipses and coral growth patterns;
  • ranging data for the distance from Earth to Mars, using the Viking spacecraft;
    data on the orbital motion of a binary pulsar PSR 1913+16;
  • observations of long-lived isotopes that decay by beta decay (Re 187, K 40, Rb 87) and comparisons to isotopes that decay by different mechanisms;
  • the Oklo natural nuclear reactor (mentioned in another posting);
  • experimental searches for differences in gravitational attraction between different elements (Eotvos-type experiments);
  • absorption lines of quasars (fine structure and hyperfine splittings);
    laboratory searches for changes in the mass difference between the K0 meson and its antiparticle;
  • searches for geological evidence of "exotic" decays, such as double beta decay of Uranium 238 or the decay of Osmium to Rhenium by electron emission, which are impossible with the present values of basic physical constants but would become possible if these changed;
  • laboratory comparisons of atomic clocks that rely on different atomic processes (e.g., fine structure vs. hyperfine transitions);
  • analysis of the effect of varying "constants" on primordial nucleosynthesis in the very early Universe.

While it is not obvious, each of these observations is sensitive to changes in the physical constants that control radioactive decay. For example, a change in the strength of weak interactions (which govern beta decay) would have different effects on the binding energy, and therefore the gravitational attraction, of different elements. Similarly, such changes in binding energy would affect orbital motion, while (more directly) changes in interaction strengths would affect the spectra we observe in distant stars.

The observations are a mixture of very sensitive laboratory tests, which do not go very far back in time but are able to detect extremely small changes, and astronomical observations, which are somewhat less precise but which look back in time. (Remember that processes we observe in a star a million light years away are telling us about physics a million years ago.) While any single observation is subject to debate about methodology, the combined results of such a large number of independent tests are hard to argue with.



_________________________
* Either my Internet is whacked out or talkorigins.org and the wayback machine are both down, so that points to Google's cached copy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1317 by AZPaul3, posted 06-01-2020 6:31 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18322
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1320 of 1381 (877008)
06-01-2020 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1314 by dad
06-01-2020 3:25 AM


Re: Your problem: no correlations should exist
dad writes:

Nor do you get to use beliefs as a definition for science.


I get to use whatever definition the scientists use - and they do not use one that has anything to do with belief.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1314 by dad, posted 06-01-2020 3:25 AM dad has not yet responded

  
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