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Author Topic:   Radioactive carbon dating
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 199 of 221 (559978)
05-12-2010 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by dennis780
05-12-2010 12:55 AM


Re: dating game
You cannot date any fossil properly without knowing how much of the parent substance there was to begin with.
First of all, the actual fossil is not dated. It is the surrounding rock that is dated.
Secondly, it is the ratio of parent to daughter isotope that is used. For example, if you start with 1 g of uranium after 1 halflife you will have 0.5 g of uranium and 0.5 g of lead. If you start with 5 g of uranium then after one half life you will have 2.5 g of uranium and 2.5 g of lead. It is the RATIO that is important.
You can't know how much time has passed if you don't know how much sand was in the hourglass to begin with.
Last I checked an hourglass is a closed system so the amount of sand in the hourglass is how much you started with.
Scientists have found fossilized lobster shells from lobsters that are STILL ALIVE. Carbon dating claimed them to be over a thousand years old. But the lobster was still ALIVE.
Lobsters get their carbon from marine sources which are richer in old carbon. This is what causes the older date. Scientists know all about this effect. This in no way negates the accuracy of carbon dating for terrestrial samples that derived their carbon from atmospheric sources.
The second, that fossilization can occur rapidly.
You are confusing perminerlization with burial. The process of replacing organic material with minerals from the surrounding rock is a slow process. However, no one is claiming that animals and plants can not be buried quickly.

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 Message 198 by dennis780, posted 05-12-2010 12:55 AM dennis780 has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 202 of 221 (560018)
05-12-2010 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by sailorstide
05-12-2010 3:08 PM


Re: dating game
I am not a professor or a scholar but as I first stated way back at the beggining of this arguement was that I think that carbon dating may not be accurate as claimed to be because world conditions from year to year, century to century and millenia to millenia have there effect on solar flaring, isotopic accumulations and all around earth shifting processes.
All of these potential problems have been controlled for by comparing the carbon age with the actual age for samples of known age. These records include insects and leaf debris found in annual lake varves, tree rings, and captured CO2 in annual ice layers. These records are used to calibrate samples of unknown age.
ABE: A member here, RAZD, has a really great website explaining these correlations. You can find it here
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 214 of 221 (566063)
06-22-2010 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by ZenMonkey
06-22-2010 5:45 PM


Re: dating game
If something has been FOSSILIZED then you're not going to be able to get any usable C-14 readings from it, because if it's FOSSILIZED, then it's a FUCKING ROCK.
I think "fossil" is loosely defined as a remanant of life found in the dirt. This can include fossils that are still almost entirely organic. I am pretty sure that charcoal from ancient human settlements found in the ground are considered fossils, and they are used to date the settlement.
However, the use of "fossilized wood" does tend to indicate permineralization where the organic material has been replaced by dissolved minerals from the surrounding water table.

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 Message 213 by ZenMonkey, posted 06-22-2010 5:45 PM ZenMonkey has replied

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Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 219 of 221 (566086)
06-22-2010 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by ZenMonkey
06-22-2010 7:12 PM


Re: dating game
I was under the impression that the term "fossil," properly applied, referrs only to permineralized, inorganic impressions.
Can you get DNA from rock?
"Nonetheless, recently developed DNA capture methods, already applied to Neanderthal and fossil human mitochondrial DNA, may soon make large-scale genome-wide analysis of ancient human diversity a reality, providing a fresh look at human population history."-- Analysis of ancient human genomes: using next generation sequencing, 20-fold coverage of the genome of a 4,000-year-old human from Greenland has been obtained - PubMed
The term fossil is used to denote organic remains in the peer reviewed lit, but then again this is more of a biology paper than a paleontology or geology paper. The wiki page references the Latin root which is fossus meaning "having been dug up".
Regardless, it appears that in the paper dennis cited, the creationists were specifically looking at carbon-dating of inorganic substances and then complaining that they weren't getting accurate readings. If they were doing better "science" than that, I again stand corrected.
Completely agree. Even in common venacular there is an obvious difference between buried organic wood and fossilized wood. We all know the difference, and the difference is permineralization.

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