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Author Topic:   Validity of Radiometric Dating
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 200 (733406)
07-17-2014 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by mram10
07-17-2014 12:17 AM


Re: why wiki may be a poor source
I am very interested in the RATE team that is working these issues now.

Interesting. You are aware of some recent work by the RATE team?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 12:17 AM mram10 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 1:24 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 78 of 200 (733423)
07-17-2014 6:01 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by mram10
07-17-2014 1:24 AM


Re: why wiki may be a poor source
Nonukes,
Not recent. Within last 10 years. Are you aware of any?

No. But you said you were "very interested in the RATE team that is working these issues now." I don't know of any such team, and I thought you were saying that you did know.

I had read that the Nation Center for Science Education(need to find link to verify) was going to create a team to verify the RATE team's research.

Where did you read that? As I understand it, there aren't any science issues to verify. I don't think there is any significant issue with the RATE team's science based calculations, and the team's conclusion that despite the scientific issues, that the impossible happened anyway seem quite outside of the realm of the science. Why would a secular organization even bother until the RATE team's work shows up in for peer review?

You know whether or not you read something. Why do you need a link to verify that?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 1:24 AM mram10 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 93 of 200 (733489)
07-17-2014 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by JonF
07-17-2014 8:17 AM


Re: why wiki may be a poor source
Gorsh, I feel snubbed. And there are others.

If it helps a bit, I freely acknowledge that you know more about the subject than I do. It's not hard to find posts where you've corrected me.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by JonF, posted 07-17-2014 8:17 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by JonF, posted 07-18-2014 8:00 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 200 (733491)
07-17-2014 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by herebedragons
07-17-2014 12:45 PM


Re: why wiki may be a poor source
It distinguishes our level of certainty and the type of evidence we have that causes us to come to a particular conclusion.

If we are rigid about that distinction, we won't be able to have discussions with creationists. Creationist insist that micro-evolution is evolution from wolves to dogs, however slow, and does occur, while macro-evolution is evolution of say a land animal-kind to a whaley-kind, and cannot occur cause you did not see it.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by herebedragons, posted 07-17-2014 12:45 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 07-17-2014 3:54 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 103 of 200 (733527)
07-17-2014 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by mram10
07-17-2014 8:44 PM


I enjoy hearing about new findings in the radiometric dating world. To discount the RATE findings just shows the ignorance of those that don't read their findings.

We have read them and we have discussed them here at length. This stuff is not new.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 8:44 PM mram10 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 200 (733553)
07-18-2014 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by mram10
07-17-2014 10:21 PM


The point is there was interesting data that came from their work.

When are you going to get around to telling us what was so interesting? All of the quotes and links I've seen posted of the RATE study data have come from other people. You have posted diddly squat. What do you want to talk about?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by mram10, posted 07-17-2014 10:21 PM mram10 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 122 of 200 (733643)
07-19-2014 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by mram10
07-19-2014 1:22 PM


Instead of saying, "they are wrong" can someone with UNDERSTAND and EXPERIENCE in this fields explain how their research was flawed

That's a very reasonable question. I think you want whoever provided you with the answer to your question to back it up with some evidence. So what did you think of the answer given at the link JonF posted in Message 81? I note that you never responded to JonF.

I highly recommend starting with the article at the link below.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/helium-rw.pdf

The short answer is that the analysis shows that the assumptions used in coming up with accelerated escape of helium are unfounded and refutable using evidence from the original paper. In addition ages obtained from the same zircons using U-Pb give ages inconsistent with the "leaky zircon" dating.

Now we can go back and forth about whose analysis is correct, but other evidence makes that kind of dickering unnecessary.

Independently from that, there is plenty of evidence that radioactive decay have actually been constant over a relevant time interval. Data form supernova SN1987a indicates that decay rates for radioactive nuclides are the same today as they were hundreds of thousand of years. We also have evidence that the decay energy of some high mass alpha emitters was constant over hundreds of millions of years which leads to the conclusion that the decay rates were also constant.

There has been lots of back and forth between scientists and the writers of the original study, and it might be worthwhile to try to form an opinion of who is the winner. But it turns out that there is lots of evidence that the earth, sun, and solar system are billions of years old. One debated study won't change that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by mram10, posted 07-19-2014 1:22 PM mram10 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by mram10, posted 07-19-2014 4:12 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 200 (733645)
07-19-2014 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by mram10
07-19-2014 1:22 PM


duplicate

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by mram10, posted 07-19-2014 1:22 PM mram10 has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 129 of 200 (733687)
07-20-2014 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by OS
07-20-2014 10:07 AM


Re: On Geiger Counters
How can one be sure as to what atomic one is looking at?

When you use a geiger counter alone, you cannot be sure. That's why methods of that type are not used to do radiometric dating.

Something to consider. Each radioactive decay emits a particle of a characteristic type and energy. We can confirm the type of decay by measuring that energy and by looking for the daughter products produced by the decay. For example, Cobalt 60 decays by beta decay. Each decay emits gamma radiation of about 1.3 Mev and a low energy beta particle. The daughter product is a stable isotope of Nickle.

What is to say that noble gas in hard rock is not radioactive?

One method for analysis is as follows.

Instead of simply sticking a Geiger counter next to a bulk sample and learning absolutely nothing useful for determining the age of a sample, we instead use a mass spectrometer to determine the exact composition of isotopes in a sample. There is absolutely no question about what isotopes are being measured.

What you are attempting, namely looking for issues in radiometric dating by asking random questions that are unrelated to the processes and methods actually used is unlikely to result in stumbling upon anything of real interest. Might I suggest doing some research into what techniques are actually being used, and then repeating the attempt after having done that?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by OS, posted 07-20-2014 10:07 AM OS has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 200 (733792)
07-21-2014 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by OS
07-21-2014 8:50 AM


(I am not sure if it is even radiation or light.) It's the activity of the nucleus from which radiation is emitted.

Why don't you put together a post with three or more sentences in it and tell us exactly what your objection is? Between your tendency to express yourself in vague ways and your frequent departures from conventional science, I cannot even guess at what your point is. Maybe you've raised an important issue here, but what is it?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by OS, posted 07-21-2014 8:50 AM OS has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 143 of 200 (759854)
06-15-2015 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 3:01 PM


Re: Interested
Due to the fact that the magnetic field was significantly stronger in the past, and cosmic particles that cause background radiation are highly vulnerable to changes in magnetic field penetration, its highly likely the historical effect of this phenomenon is highly significant to long-life decay rates.

There is no evidence that any of these things affect decay rates. Every attempt to link a real world cause (e.g. neutrinos, cosmic radiation) to the supposed affect on decay rates has been an absolute failure.

The patent application in the EU failed because the scientists and their lawyers were utterly unable to correlate the measured decay rates with solar flares or neutrinos or even to describe how someone else might do so.

The supposed science you are relying isn't nearly as steady as it was the last time you were here, and it was shaky even then.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 3:01 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 4:04 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 200 (759861)
06-15-2015 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 4:04 PM


Re: Interested
So there is an existing and logical cause and effect that would by its very nature effect decay rates.

Lol!

Mindspawn, perhaps you have forgotten that you and I discussed this neutron proposal in depth and that by the time our discussion I had listed a number of consequences of your 'neutron delay' proposal for which you had no answers.

Here are some consequences you are neglecting.

1) The decay rates you need to show a less than even one billion year earth are of the same magnitude as the neutron flux you are requiring since one neutron prevents one decay.

2) The isotopes in a radioactive sample would become increasingly heavy over time. That is not observed. Again the rate at which this would happen would be related to the rate at which you are claiming things would decay if not for neutron particles.

3) Radioactive samples that are shielded from neutrons would then return to their extremely high decay rates. For example, we should expect that the uranium in a shutdown reactor to decay away rapidly due to the neutron shielding placed all around the reactor compartment. Yet such behavior is not observed.

4) Since you are claiming that the neutron flux is slowing current decay rates to reduced levels, the neutron flux must exist right now, and not at some time in the past. It is easy to show that such a flux would be lethal to all biological life.

The neutron principle does not work. What's more, I am pretty clear that a review of our past discussion will reveal that you know that it does not work.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 4:04 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 5:29 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 200 (759878)
06-15-2015 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 5:29 PM


Re: Interested
please explain your thinking here. I'm not following. I require nothing more than the existing neutron flux for this to work.

Wrong. As I explained to you before...

If a neutron prevents a decay, then the neutron must exist proportional to the number of decays prevented. In order to have enough neutrons to convert a million year decay rate into a billion year decay rate, you need enough neutrons to prevent 999/1000 decays.

The parent isotope would only become heavy if there was a net gain, not a net decay.

You are claiming that the decays are stopped by neutron absorption. Such a thing would convert a nucleus to a higher and heavier is isotope. There is so evidence of any such conversion. I am not even complaining about the gain weight rather than a loss. I'm talking about a change in the isotopic ratio. In the earlier debate you claimed that lighter isotopes would replace the heavier ones that after absorption, but there are limited light isotopes and your scenario cannot work.

3) Yes, if completely shielded from the neutron flux they would revert to their natural decay rate. However most neutron shields do not shield for high speed muons which create the neutron flux from within the sample.

You scenario is does not apply for a nuclear reactor which must shield against all radiation. Ple

In the case of a nuclear reactor high speed muons are easily stopped by lead shielding and steel shielding. Neutrons are stopped by boronated poly shielding. The U-235 ought to be consumed at high rates. We ought to detect within the reactor compartment after shutdown high levels of gammas produced by nuclear decay. Instead we find that the U-235 is not lost and there are no extra decay gammas. In the previous discussion, you relied on another poster to describe a similar situation before you punted on this nonsense.

Please show that the current neutron flux is lethal to life.

The current neutron flux is not lethal to life. However the neutron flux required to make this scheme work would be lethal. The amount of flux required to slow down the decay of 1 cubic centimeter sample of U-238 after I isolate it isotopically, so the neutron flu must exist everywhere on earth since you don't know where I am going to move my sample. And the total number of neutrons/sec must match the rapid decay that it is supposed to be preventing.

I should also mention that the neutron flux in a nuclear reactor is continually monitored because the neutron flux is proportional to reactor power. There aren't any significant number of muon induced neutrons in a nuclear submarines reactor. You are just talking garbage.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 5:29 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by JonF, posted 06-16-2015 9:04 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 163 by mindspawn, posted 06-17-2015 5:26 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 200 (759891)
06-15-2015 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by mindspawn
06-15-2015 5:29 PM


Re: Interested
Below is a link to the previous discussion on this exact same topic. I find that I was able to come up with a lot more objections to your scheme.

See Message 942.

If there is an effect, surely neutrons are not the cause.

By the way, this next quote is you acknowledging to PurpleYouko that a neutron flux does not affect decay rates.

From Message 954

PY writes:

First of all as I have pointed out above, the effects of neutron flux on decay rates has been tested rather thoroughly and categorically ruled out as a possible way to change decay rates.

Secondly and much more seriously, the kind of thermal or fast neutron flux needed for any isotope to capture a neutron would be many orders of magnitude higher than any form of organic life could survive. Such a flux on the surface of the planet would inevitably result in a sterile radioactive wasteland

mindspawn writes:

Ok I accept your first point, must still look into your second point.

Can we drop this now?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by mindspawn, posted 06-15-2015 5:29 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by mindspawn, posted 06-17-2015 6:10 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 200 (759938)
06-16-2015 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by JonF
06-16-2015 9:04 AM


Re: Interested
have sub experience

Indeed I do. I served in the US Navy on board submarines. Lots of training/experience with shielding, radioactivity, and reactor physics. Certainly too much training to accept this planet wide manipulating of reaction rates via nuclear flux proposition.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by JonF, posted 06-16-2015 9:04 AM JonF has not yet responded

  
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