question for Buzsaw (re: the 'Traditional Values Coalition')

I asked Buz about that a few posts ago. If he doesn't think that then it is not relevant to the discussion.Buz? Do you or do you not think that some disease is somesort of message from god?So far what I *do* remember him saying is that if we followed some biblical prescriptions (monogamy) then there would be much less spread of some diseases. If that is all this thread is about then it seems like a bit of a tempest in a teapot. Like yea, so?

Check out message #30, if Buz isn't out right saying that HIV is God's punishment, then he's seriously implying so.------------------
holmes

Thank you, Holmes.
from that post Ok, Buz, I can not read that any other way than you saying it is God's punishment for bad behavior. As others have pointed out this doesn't jibe with the actual occurance of disease. Can you answer that?

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Ok, Buz, I can not read that any other way than you saying it is God's punishment for bad behavior. As others have pointed out this doesn't jibe with the actual occurance of disease. Can you answer that?

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Ned, this's one reason I cited you as a favorite poster. You went at this in an unoffensive manner so as not to demeanor or insult.In answer to your question, if you read carefully this segment of my statement, with a some elaboration, it should answer your question:Buz statement:

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that god may have utilized fatal means to erradicate those who deviate from his prescribed habits for those creatures in order to preserve the whole human race.

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If Jehovah be the supreme creator god of the universe is it not sensible and proper for him to make the rules for his intelligent creatures with whom he wishes to fellowship? If that be the case wouldn't he take measures to insure his rules are followed by his creatures? And if that be so, why should we, his creatures be surprised to suffer consequences when we ignore the rules and practice these forbidden acts?In summary, Jehovah, who loves his creatures, especially the ones who of high intelligence (humans) cannot tolerate that which would eventually erradicate humanity if unchecked.
This's how Biblical fundamentalists such as I and likely the other so called idiots look at these sex diseases which, btw were not a serious problem in America until the hippy sixties when sexual permiscuity began to escalate in our nation.

To put it politely, BULLSHIT!

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This's how Biblical fundamentalists such as I and likely the other so called idiots look at these sex diseases which, btw were not a serious problem in America until the hippy sixties when sexual permiscuity began to escalate in our nation.

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I'll let Ned take the rest of your post, but I just wanted to address this part. It's not true at all. First, the first major period of sexual promiscuity in the US was the flappers back in the 1920s; it was met with a later counterrevolution, only to be re-revived in the 1960s. Second, sexual diseases (such as gonorrhea and syphilis) used to be crippling in certain parts of the US. During World War I, the US military had the highest ratio of these diseases out of all of the major powers involved, and consequently had the highest ratio of soldiers out of combat because of them. The US's strategy before the war on how to prevent such diseases? You guessed it, abstinence-only; the other major european powers stressed protection more.P.S. - as a side topic (on the topic of flappers), one gets a rather interesting view of how language has changed over time when reading their writings. The following lines from Outlook, from Dec. 6, 1922, seem rather... um... "odd" to a modern reader:Fathers, find out what is within the minds and hearts and souls of your children. There is a wonderful, an interesting, and a sacred treasure-house there if you will take the time and pain to explore. The key is yours in return for patient understanding, sympathetic encouragement, and kindly wisdom. Make love to your daughter if necessary! Make her realize the depth of your love and make her feel that you have confidence in her ability to live up to your standards of upright womanhood.The issue here is that back in the 1920s, the phrase "make love" meant "sweet talk". ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 11-07-2003]

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HIV is transmitted primarily via heterosexual sex. Three-quarters of all cases of HIV transmission were from heterosexual sex. Are you seriously claiming that god finds heterosexuality unacceptable and thus has sent a fatal disease to spread primarily among those practicing the deviancy of being straight?

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I repeat, it originated primarily within the gay community. These diseases when pampered and tolerated by a culture which comes to accept it naturally eventually becomes uncontrollably infected such as is the case in parts of Africa wherein it is now finally becomming transmitted primarily among heters. In less permiscuous cultures HIV is not a serious problem among heters.

That must be why back in the 1930s the acting surgeon general, Thomas Parran, initiated a campaign to educate the American people on STDs. The long standing taboo on discussing matters like this had created a serious health issue.------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

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I repeat, it originated primarily within the gay community. These diseases when pampered and tolerated by a culture which comes to accept it naturally eventually becomes uncontrollably infected such as is the case in parts of Africa wherein it is now finally becomming transmitted primarily among heters. In less permiscuous cultures HIV is not a serious problem among heters.

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Buz, please understand that I don't meant to sound impolite, but how many times do you need to be corrected on this one? In the United States and Britain, HIV was primarily spread in the gay (male) community. However, in most countries in the world, it has primarily been spread through prostitution. MSM currently are only the third most common cause of HIV transmission; hetero is #1, and IV drug use is #2. About tied with MSM (and far surpassing it in many countries) is mother-child transmission.Also, the disease didn't spread *to* Africa (although there's been plenty of mixing of strains back and forth); it *originated* in Africa. This is evidenced from a wide variety of factors; native animal populations with origin diseases (SIV, FIV, etc); the greatest divergence among strains; and many other factors. The currently accepted as most likely initial transmition method is the practice of consuming "bushmeat" (monkey meat).Which "less permiscuous" (sic) cultures are you referring to?Also, if this is a punishment from God, why did He give a far lower risk for transmission to lesbians than to heterosexuals?Finally, care to comment on Bubonic plague, the worst plague in recorded history?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Ok, I think you are saying that it is God's handy work. Not "punishment" per se but rather a method to insure that we don't indulge in practices which would reduce our chances of survival. I think you mean this. That is, homosexual activities don't produce offspring and so would if "left unchecked" eradicate us. If you mean something else perhaps you can clarify.A few things:Isn't it God who determines our natures when we are born? If not then what?Why does he pick a method of controlling our behavior which hurts those who are engaging in activities which do result in offspring? In fact, HIV has a high chance of infecting offspring at the time of birth.What does this say about other diseases that seem to have nothing to do with breaking rules?The sex diseases have been a serious problem for, at least, centuries. Some of the older ones were brought under control by modern science. Does that mean we defeated God's purposes? Will that be the case when we do defeat HIV?

Rei, bottom line, permiscuous and deviant sex is where the buck stops with these awful diseases. All the money in the world thrown at the problem will not solve it. I ainta gona sit here addressing all these excuses for devient practices which trigger factors present in the human body designed to check them. I suggest you lubbers of these who are acting like termites, eating away at our culture to donate heartily to keep them all well so as to be able to enjoy their deviency unchecked. Then maybe government can cut the funds extracted from me and you to be on par per capita with other diseases.

Buz, I would appreciate it if you would address the points raised. Please? They're the three lines at the end with the question marks ------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

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Isn't it God who determines our natures when we are born? If not then what?

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This may surprise you, Ned, but my answer to the above is that God has much less to do with our individual natures at birth than our ancestors, our parents, and our society for the following reason:It is now known that the genes and DNA of humans is affected by such things as diet, sexual activity, drugs and habits of one's forbears. For example there are so many female hormones injected into modern dairy cows that yearly cow production has risen about fourfold from cows not given these drugs. It's in our eggs and poultry also. It has been established that consumption of these products has a bearing on the genes of humans who consume these and so many other products in our culture which contain these chemicals.

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Which "less permiscuous" (sic) cultures are you referring to?

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Likely most Islamic nations, 7th Day Adventist cultures, Mormon cultures, the Swiss, Aumish cultures, etc.

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Also, if this is a punishment from God, why did He give a far lower risk for transmission to lesbians than to heterosexuals?

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1. It is less prevelant.
2. The man has the leadership role, thus the greater responsibility in a society in God's view.
3. Generally no access by women to the blood via contact.

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Finally, care to comment on Bubonic plague, the worst plague in recorded history?

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I'm not that that apprised on the Bubonic plague, but such things as carelessness in living conditions/cleanliness, urban living where safety measures are not taken, and yes, Providence. Many thousands of God's own people, according to the Bible were striken by plagues on more than one occasion for such things as idol worship and deviating from other laws of God applicable to his own people.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 11-07-2003]

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Which "less permiscuous" (sic) cultures are you referring to?

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[color ] Likely most Islamic nations, 7th Day Adventist cultures, Mormon cultures, the Swiss, Aumish cultures, etc.[color - green]

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Nice try with color brackets Going for Joralex-mode? Please don't, be yourself. Most Islamic nations have incredibly strict immigration procedures to control diseases (even in relatively liberal Iraq, people still had to get blood tests to enter).7th Day Adventists, Mormons, and the Aumish (sic) are in the US; in the US, MSM is the primary HIV vector, unlike the rest of the world, so they'll proportionally have lower rates.The swiss have a higher rate of HIV than the western European average at a rate of 8.2 per 100,000 inhabitants (vs. 6.1 per 100,000). Also, they do not stress abstinence only prevention methods (which are very rare in western europe), but a mixture of methods.

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1. It is less prevelant.

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What is less prevalent? Women? Or are you saying transmission is less prevelent? If so, that was my exact claim - it is!

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2. The man has the leadership role, thus the greater responsibility in a society in God's view.

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Ah. And hetero women have more of a leadership role than lesbians? I mean, if transmission rate is correlated to leadership...

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3. Generally no access by women to the blood via contact.

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It's good to know that God is limited by chemistry; that answers the famous "Can God create a rock he can't move" question.

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I'm not that that apprised on the Bubonic plague, but such things as carelessness in living conditions/cleanliness, urban living where safety measures are not taken, and yes, Providence. Many thousands of God's own people, according to the Bible were striken by plagues on more than one occasion for such things as idol worship and deviating from other laws of God applicable to his own people.

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So, what lesson should we take from it?A) In our hour of darkness, we should turn to prayer, and get struck down at an increasingly rapid rate - especially the clergy, who buried the deadB) In our hour of prayer, we should forget about prayer, and turn to science.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."