Biblical Creationism

Crashfrog
Was what turned you away from God, your belief that your prayers were not heard? Did you come to this conclusion because what you asked for was not given? I wonder: Did that make you think that there is no God, or that a God that would not grant your wishes was not worthy of your adoration?
Sometimes God doesnt answer my prayers. It is not because I do not believe hard enough. It is disappointing but I have come to accept that certain things I ask God for, in the long run are not things that I truly need. On the other hand, that seems like a poor conclusion after someone close has died slowly and painfully and you have prayed so much for their recovery. However, I still love God. And as hard as it is sometimes, I have come to realize that their are many things that God does that I will never understand why. But I dont think that makes him wrong.
I am not criticizing you in any way, simply stating my own belief on the subject.
General

That, and the larger "bad things happening to good people" problem. I had never heard a solution that wasn't either blaming the victim, wishful thinking, an argument from ineffability, or simply faulty logic.But basically what started me on that path was my refusal to believe that if God had a plan for me, that plan was to fail at everything I tried to do.Oh, well. if Christianity works for you, that's great. Atheism works great for me. We're both happy, so no big deal, right?

Crashfrog,
I guess the reason Christians evangelize so much is this: If athiesm is true, when a Christian dies nothing happens. But unfortunately for the athiest, if there is a God you might not go where you would want to go. There is more to it than that, and I certainly dont wish bad for you or mean to insult you.
With regard to 'bad things to good people,' I forget now if you read my paper of the existence of sin. Not that I claim to have all the answers but that was something I tried to put together for those who do wonder about pain and suffering. If you havent read it yet, who knows, there might be something in there that speaks or helps. Good luck.
General

Why? If I die and God's there, I'll just change my mind. After all I still have free will when I die, right?

You may have free will but you only have a choice while you have inadequate information. There's a good god!!!!------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Actually Crashfrog, my belief is the answer is no. Of coarse, I have never died and been given that choice so I cant tell you with authority from experience. However the Bible that I believe in tells me, and since you are an athiest I realize you will disagree, that we have to make the decision while on earth. It is our journey to recognize GOd. If it were up to just choosing him even after we died, our life on earth would seem a bit of a waste. Doubting Thomas would not believe that Jesus rose from the dead unless he would be able to touch him in the side and see the scars on his hands. When he got the chance Jesus told him that it was better for those who believed without seeing than it was for Thomas. Luckily Thomas was still alive and had the chance to believe. After we die we don't. That may not seem very caring to you, but that is how the Bible describes it.

And what about hell? How do you reconcile a kind and loving god who will create someone just so that they can be damned to hell for not worshipping him? How can a kind and loving god endorse *eternal* torment? Samuel Clements has some good commentary on this... basically, it is reasonable to consider even long-term torment, but eternal... since God is omniscient and omnipotent, that would mean that he created the being only to suffer forever.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

I wrote and released a paper on this website under the miscellaneous section under the heading, "Does the existence of sin prove a loving God does not exist?" Read it...Maybe it will answer some of your questions.You certainly raise a common criticism of religions who hold to a belief in a hell. The idea of a loving God allowing people to go to hell, seems like a contradiction doesnt it? It is a legitimate concern. Please understand there is in fact no perfect answer.
1. The only thing I know for sure about hell is that it is eternal seperation from God. If this is all that it is then it is not unreasonable for God to send people there after they die when they didnt believe in him on earth. If this is all hell is then it seems God is reluctantly granting their wish.
2. This is not really my place to say, but justice would require for those who caused suffering and pain here on earth to be paid back.
3. I really dont think God sends people to hell. I think people choose to go there just as they choose to God to heaven. Just as God is the king of heaven, Satan is the prince of darkness (hell). In heaven there is no pain. In hell there will be because it is the opposite of heaven.
4. God is merciful so I think it may be harder to get to hell than many people preach. Those who do go to hell have already made that wish here on earth and as I already stated God is just reluctantly allowing it.
THere is more to be said but I'll leave it at that for now.
General

So, you think when a person dies, they see two paths, heaven and hell, and can take one path or the other? Why would anyone choose hell? Or, are you saying with how they live their lives they choose? Well, a person who doesn't believe in Hell is not choosing to go to Hell. God did make a choice, however, that these people would come into existance for a relative blink of an eye, and because they didn't trust 4,000 year old words of a nomadic desert shepard tribe pased on through oral tradition for years, then written down by varying individuals... (etc), that they spend all of eternity in complete and utter suffering. That is not kind or loving. That's cruel. Horribly cruel.Unless you are claiming that people literally make a wish to go to hell, you're arguing that God is reluctantly choosing to send people to eternal torment (who he knew would end up there when he created them). Which comes back to the original question, which I don't feel has been answered... why would God create someone just so that they'll suffer forever? With no chance to repent once they know the truth of their ways? No way to get a second chance? Just eternal pain for a choice that wasn't printed in black and white and, quite to the contrary, was presented in multiple contradictory versions by the major world religions? And, if the reason for creating someone to suffer forever is to make others learn to be good as a consequence... that may be all nice and good for the other, "saved" people... but for those spending all eternity in pain for their blink-of-an-eye actions, it's unthinkably cruel.And, beyond this... how could anyone love a God who creates a creation just to have it tortured forever?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

1. YOu wrote, "So, you think when a person dies, they see two paths, heaven and hell, and can take one path or the other? Why would anyone choose hell?"No I dont think this. I believe that because God made us free, all people make the decision while alive whether or not to follow God. I believe that the ones who choose not to are merely granted their wish when they die.2. quote "and because they didn't trust 4,000 year old words of a nomadic desert shepard tribe pased on through oral tradition for years, then written down by varying individuals"I only stated that those who chose not to accept God would not enter heaven. God is a loving and merciful God I believe and I think that those who search him out do find him. Let us leave the 4000 year old words of a nomadic desert shepherd out of it for now because it is not central to this topic.3. With regards to your last question I responds quite simply with this. I defend the beleif from a BIblical standpoint.
When God created Adam and Eve he gave them one rule. After sometime they disobeyed. By not listening they lost their immortality and were cast out of a perfect Eden. God could have washed his hands of the whole matter and left it at that. He would have been justified but really who could love him. SO in his mercy he sent Jesus his son to die for the sinners (all people) so that if the people would repent and accept Jesus they could be made perfect again after they die. I leave it at that but there is so much more to it, and by leaving it at that I am sure it makes the case for GOd even worse. Can I suggest you read my paper here entitled "Does the Existence of Evil prove a Loving God exists." I tried really hard to put a lot of work into the paper so that it would deal with many issues you raised. If you like why dont we continue the discussion under that paper. It is in the Miscellaneous section.
General

General May I ask of you just what level of belief you have in the words of the bible and if you can explain the enormous discrepencies present in it?

quote:

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I guess the reason Christians evangelize so much is this: If athiesm is true, when a Christian dies nothing happens. But unfortunately for the athiest, if there is a God you might not go where you would want to go.

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This argument never fails to puzzle me. There are so many religions in the world. Yet the standard answer is "if there is a god and you're an atheist, you're going to hell because you're not a christian... because that's what God would like"Here's a hypothetical for you: if Atheism is true when a Christian dies nothing happens. If there is a God who happens to hate Christianity, he's going to punish the Christian more than the atheist. Or there is a God who loves Llamas and everyone who owned a Llama at the time of their death gets into heaven and everyone who didn't goes to a bar somewhere in Orlando, Florida where they try on shoes for eternity and sip weak rum and cokes.

"In our discussion of the Absolute, we have seen that as First Cause of the relative, it is orginative and creative of the relative realm.And at this point it is meet that we consider judgements about creation, or the orgination of the universe.To the extent that creation is, in at least some minimal sense, a "happening", our judgements reagardng it are "emprical" in the sense tht they are presumed to be descriptive of a state of affairs whcih obtained at a determinte time. And yet from the methodological standpoint, they are scarely "empirical" in the sense that they are emneable ot observational adjudication; we are in no potion at present to "observe" the creative occurrence and thereby confirm our judgments about its character.These considerations do not suffice to still man's inquiries and curiosities ABOUT the creative occurrence. They do, however, impose limitations as to what can be said and with what reliability."I feel that this boundary is what seperates creation science and scientific creationism AS A REAL DISCIPLINE OF THOUGHT with reliability falling to Biblical Creationism. We may be able to make the decision on another planent with "other" life but then the immediate text prior seems to apply,"The essential atomicity of the material, relative universe is, apart from these considerations, an internal consequence of the Duality of the Cosmos. Necessarily, then, the relative world, the material universe, is atomic, since in virtue of the Duality of the Absolute & the Relative, the realtive realm must be the counterpart, the opposite of the Absolute; and since the relative must be finite and characterized by basic multiplicty; that is atomic."These quotes are from Franklin J. Matchette OULINE OF A METAPHYSICS 1949. This region need not be restricted to Earth however.

Quote from The General: 1. The only thing I know for sure about hell is that it is eternal seperation from God. If this is all that it is then it is not unreasonable for God to send people there after they die when they didnt believe in him on earth. If this is all hell is then it seems God is reluctantly granting their wish.My Reply: I never looked at it like this. If this is correct though, and atheists are in this lifetime already "separated from God" by choice, then hell would be exactly as life is on Earth now. Especially since there are so many beliefs about Earth harboring hell in its center, or Earth "turning to hell" after the "rapture". So basically, since I'm an atheist I will continue to live on Earth similar to how I am currently living, forever. Damn! No more need to look for immortality, I've found it. And I think that leaves the door wide open for the unchristian idea of "reincarnaton" as well. Perhaps the souls that don't believe in God just keep reincarnating. Sounds good enough to me.And I'm not trying to be a "smart-ass" with this post, I really do like the idea that since I don't believe in God I just continue to exist on Earth as I am now, forever.
Melissa

You may be interested to think thru the part that may apply directly to the General's thread head to which I now quote Matchette a little more fully :"We have already suggested the specifically ethical sense of this situation- we know consider it in greater detail-" Ethics and morality rest on a fundametnal dualism of good and evil. The problem has always been one of giving a specified sense to these crucial terms; to make clear what is, no doubt, the oldest and most fundamental of man's intuitions;-the opposing characthers of good and evil.The problem A-R theory has its own distinctive answer; its own particular specification of the meaning of this basic opposition.As we have already noted, it is the Absolute which constitutes the locus of all values, in an absolute sense, as well as the point of reference from which all morality may be scanned. Within the region...there we saw the most negative thought, the most divergent mental state giving rise to a return to the Absolute; and the most postitive, least divergent mind-state giving rise to conditions of a GREATER divergence...in this sense, it is evident that no relative entity can in any real, complete way, be good -nor, by the same token, can the relative be wholly bad, since its privation, its negation of the Absolute is also never complete - utter and complete evil would be non-existent."Pages 90 and 91 of the OUTLINE OF METAPHYSICS. I will provide the full quotes of Matchette's book if you do not have it available but the simple notion of black and white representing opposites DOES NOT apply to good and evil in letting the force be with Mathette.