Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,334 Year: 3,591/9,624 Month: 462/974 Week: 75/276 Day: 3/23 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Fate or Freewill?
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 6 of 27 (93098)
03-18-2004 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tgrmst
03-17-2004 9:14 PM


is the future already set? or can we change it?
The future is not set (the universe is non-deterministic) but we do not have the ability to change it (quantum randomness does not allow us the ability to change anything). In any case, if the future is not set how does the term 'can we change it' make sense?
We have freewill - and would still have freewill if the universe was completely deterministic. We are our brains and bodies, since the actions we take are determined by these parts we have freewill.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by tgrmst, posted 03-17-2004 9:14 PM tgrmst has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 9 of 27 (93125)
03-18-2004 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Spencer
03-18-2004 10:00 AM


You're saying that God knows the future, therefore no free will.
Why does God knowing the future imply no free will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Spencer, posted 03-18-2004 10:00 AM Spencer has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by :æ:, posted 03-18-2004 12:17 PM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 15 of 27 (93281)
03-19-2004 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by :æ:
03-18-2004 12:17 PM


In order for God to know the future, it must first be determined what that future is. If the future is already determined, then no alternatives exist, and hence free will does not exist.
No, that doesn't follow. The past is determined, does that mean we had no free will in the past? Knowing the future merely means that god knows what choice we will make, that doesn't imply that we didn't make the choice of our own freewill.
In order not to have freewill we would have to be co-erced into making the choice by things beyond our control, determinism does not imply this. In fact, god knowing the future doesn't imply determinism either; anymore than someone having a time machine does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by :æ:, posted 03-18-2004 12:17 PM :æ: has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by :æ:, posted 03-19-2004 5:37 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 17 of 27 (93293)
03-19-2004 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by :æ:
03-19-2004 5:37 AM


Knowing the future inerrantly means that God knows what path we must take. If one cannot choose an alternative path, then s/he does not have free will. Perhaps we mean different things by "free will"?
By free will I mean that our actions are ultimately determined by ourselves. Alternatives do not come into it. Derivations of free will based on alternatives are Philosophically thorny - how can we know whether or not there was an alternative? If we would choose the same alternative if the same events were run again is it really an alternative? etc.
How can God know the future without first determining what that future is? I don't see how the future can be known and indeterminate at the same time.
Why cannot we determine the future and god simply know what we will do?
I don't see how this is relevant. Can you clarify?
Imagine I have a time machine and travel ten years into the future, I now know what will happen in that time (or a small subset thereof) does this mean than everyone at the time I travelled from now no longer has freewill?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by :æ:, posted 03-19-2004 5:37 AM :æ: has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by TechnoCore, posted 03-19-2004 7:51 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024