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Author Topic:   Fate or Freewill?
tgrmst
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 27 (93026)
03-17-2004 9:14 PM


is the future already set? or can we change it?
Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Dr Jack, posted 03-18-2004 5:24 AM tgrmst has not yet responded
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One_Charred_Wing
Member (Idle past 4389 days)
Posts: 690
From: USA West Coast
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 2 of 27 (93039)
03-17-2004 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tgrmst
03-17-2004 9:14 PM


Screwed if ya do, screwed if ya don't
This's one of those questions where we can't really look to anyone but ourselves (and for us theists our Holy Scriptures) to answer that. But here's something I've been thinking:

Say, on a hypothetical level for non theists, God can already see what's going to happen to us. Does that mean we have no control over it? Yes and no.

If it's already gonna happen it's gonna happen, but we're the ones who will set ourselves up for it. Remember in Oedipus the King (old, old Socratic play I read in English last semester, I hope somebody on here's read it) how once Oedipus's parents found out what he was going to do, everything they did to prevent it made it happen? Maybe it's sort of like that.

But I've always thought that praying to God to show you what to do and help you along might change the outcome for the better. I'm going to have to think about this to get some real ideas, though.

Anybody else have ideas about this?

[This message has been edited by Born2Preach, 03-17-2004]


Wanna feel God? Step onto the wrestling mat and you'd be crazy to deny the uplifting spirit.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Light
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 27 (93049)
03-17-2004 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by One_Charred_Wing
03-17-2004 10:29 PM


Re: Screwed if ya do, screwed if ya don't
It is ironic that the Christian concept is built around free will, but their description of an all knowing deity, excludes the concept of free will.

If a deity can know the future, then it is pre-determined. Our free will is merely an illusion and the Christian God is merely toying with us. The original sin concept is logically absurd.

Independant of religious explainations, it appears that free will is an illusion anyway. If we are merely very complex bags of chemical soup, then we will respond to input in a manner determined by the pre-existing state of those chemicals and physical laws that determine chemical interactions. Our illusionary perception of free will is merely a by-product of consciousness.

Complexity or chaos theory is no realm for free will. It merely makes it much more difficult or impossible to predict the outcome. I don't think anyone would equate their perception of free will with randomness.

If we don't actually have free will, how would this change our perspective on reality?

It wouldn't at all.


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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 27 (93074)
03-18-2004 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Light
03-17-2004 11:02 PM


Re: Screwed if ya do, screwed if ya don't
On a purely philosphical point, if there was a omnipotent being, he very well might create a universe and a people that he couldn't predict. Be boring if you already knew everything. In fact being omniscient would contravene omnipotence. If you know your own future, aren't you contrained by that future. Perhaps they are mutually exclusive.
Course, this is just mad ramblings out my nether regions.
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15334
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 5 of 27 (93080)
03-18-2004 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by One_Charred_Wing
03-17-2004 10:29 PM


Re: Screwed if ya do, screwed if ya don't

Say, on a hypothetical level for non theists, God can already see what's going to happen to us. Does that mean we have no control over it? Yes and no.

I'd say "yes". If the future really is fixed then God fixed it at the moment of creation. God chose everything. You choices inevitably follow God's plan. Unless, of coure, God's actions are also fixed and even God has no choice.


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 6 of 27 (93098)
03-18-2004 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tgrmst
03-17-2004 9:14 PM


is the future already set? or can we change it?

The future is not set (the universe is non-deterministic) but we do not have the ability to change it (quantum randomness does not allow us the ability to change anything). In any case, if the future is not set how does the term 'can we change it' make sense?

We have freewill - and would still have freewill if the universe was completely deterministic. We are our brains and bodies, since the actions we take are determined by these parts we have freewill.


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Chris
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 27 (93101)
03-18-2004 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by tgrmst
03-17-2004 9:14 PM


What I believe is:
From nothing God made the space and with it also time, so God is not limited by them. Which means God is in the past, present, and future right now. So whatever you do or whatever you will do later He knew it already.
I don't think the future is set already, it's just.. God knew the future.
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Spencer
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 27 (93124)
03-18-2004 10:00 AM


quote:
God is in the past, present, and future right now. So whatever you do or whatever you will do later He knew it already.
I don't think the future is set already, it's just.. God knew the future.

You're saying that God knows the future, therefore no free will.

But personally I believe we do have free will.


Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 9 of 27 (93125)
03-18-2004 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Spencer
03-18-2004 10:00 AM


You're saying that God knows the future, therefore no free will.

Why does God knowing the future imply no free will?


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Replies to this message:
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:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5418 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 10 of 27 (93143)
03-18-2004 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Jack
03-18-2004 10:03 AM


Mr Jack writes:

Why does God knowing the future imply no free will?


In order for God to know the future, it must first be determined what that future is. If the future is already determined, then no alternatives exist, and hence free will does not exist.
This message is a reply to:
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Chris
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 27 (93226)
03-18-2004 7:10 PM


I read a post from Mike about this and I think he is right.
quote:
God walks into the bar.
God asks Bob, " What's your poison? "
Then God says - " By the way Bob, I know what you want to drink "
God thinks secretly that Bob will want a Martini - shaken not stirred.
Bob says, " No you don't know, I'm going to change my mind so you cannot possibly know. "
Bob continues " I want a vodka and orange on the house "
God says " Fine - but I still know the outcome ".
Bob retorts, " Ha - that's where you are wrong, I actually want a martini - shaken not stirred "
God replies " Fine, a martini it is. "
God still knows the outcome despite freewill.

And I also believe we have freewill.


Replies to this message:
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TechnoCore
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 27 (93230)
03-18-2004 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by tgrmst
03-17-2004 9:14 PM


The free will can only act upon the given choices at any moment.
Does that mean i really have a choice? What inside me is it that makes me doing a specific chioce?

Either i estemate the benefits of each particular choice and choose whats best for me. (Given short and long-term considerations) I don't think its possible to make a bad choice. The choice I make is the sum of alot of considerations. I might make a choice that seem bad for me, just because i feel to do so. But that choice will still be the best choice given all circumstances. Maybe Im bored and boredom is the effect you get from making to many sane and predictable choices in a row. So now I go and do some really stupid choices to get in a better mood.

So I have no choice after all

[This message has been edited by TechnoCore, 03-18-2004]


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DC85
Member
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 13 of 27 (93234)
03-18-2004 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Chris
03-18-2004 7:10 PM


Chris that post makes 0 sense.... If God knows the outcome of everything is Predetermined therefore there is NO free will...

also let me throw another question out.

what was the point of giving Adam and Eve the chance to obey in the first place? He knew darn well they would sin so why even let them in the garden? If they were Put in the imperfect world in the first place... they wouldn't know the difference?

[This message has been edited by DC85, 03-18-2004]


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Gilgamesh
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 27 (93235)
03-18-2004 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Chris
03-18-2004 7:10 PM


I'm afriad your story doesn't make your point.

God always knew that Bob will order the Martini. Therefor Bob was predestined to order the Martini. Nothing Bob could do or think would change that fact. He thought he was making a decision about which drink, but he was always going to chose the Martini. That's not a choice.

His impression of choice was an illusion.

In your example, this illusion is benign.

In the Garden of Eden scenario, it is totally obscene: God created a temptation for man, that he knew he would take, and then condemned all of his descendants.


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 338 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 15 of 27 (93281)
03-19-2004 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by :æ:
03-18-2004 12:17 PM


In order for God to know the future, it must first be determined what that future is. If the future is already determined, then no alternatives exist, and hence free will does not exist.

No, that doesn't follow. The past is determined, does that mean we had no free will in the past? Knowing the future merely means that god knows what choice we will make, that doesn't imply that we didn't make the choice of our own freewill.

In order not to have freewill we would have to be co-erced into making the choice by things beyond our control, determinism does not imply this. In fact, god knowing the future doesn't imply determinism either; anymore than someone having a time machine does.


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Replies to this message:
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