The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread

Hi Buz,Are you familiar with curves in a geometric sense?From wiki,
Curve - Wikipedia

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Wiki writes,
In everyday use of the term "curve", a straight line is not curved, but in mathematical parlance curves include straight lines and line segments.

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Also,

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Of course if one says curved in ordinary language, it means bent (not straight), so refers to a locus. This leads to the general idea of curvature.

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You are using the everyday definition of the term straight. In geometry, which is how spacetime is described, a straight line follows the natural curvature of space.The following links may give you a start to understanding the geometry of spacetime and the laws that apply to it:*Euclidean geometry: Euclidean geometry - Wikipedia
*Non-euclidean geometry: Non-Euclidean geometry - Wikipedia
*Hyperbolic geometry: Hyperbolic geometry - Wikipedia
*Klien model: Beltrami—Klein model - Wikipedia
*General relativity: General relativity - WikipediaI hope this helps in your understanding of curved spacetime, and how all lines in space must follow the curvature, to include your bar.So your question of 'what property in space makes the bar curved?' is non-sensical in the sense that SPACE itself is the property that is curved. Anything that travels within it MUST follow that physical law.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Buz I hope you can understand that this statement of yours, defining space in a physics sense, is just gibberish.For you to refute spacetime curvature you must show how general relativity, which deals specifically with gravity, is wrong. But, before you do that you must first understand what it is that GR is implying about spacetime. That is where your universe falls apart. If you told a physics professor that a bar would over power the curvature, he would strike you about the head with said bar. And, btw, bended is not a physics term, I don't even think it's a word, period. I believe you meant bent. Oops you did it again, bent.And no, the physical properties of the bar do NOT change. Space is observed to be curved. A 10ft bar or a quintillion ft bar would still be striaght in principle, but not when observed by us in space. It's not to satisfy GR, GR explains what we observe. It would be to satisfy space.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

No, observed as in gravitational lensing. Observable as in watching an energy such as light curve because of the effects on space by mass. The light, or photon, is NOT bending, it is going in a straight line through curved spacetime. And the beauty of it is that it's feeling no force! The photon is NOT turning, it's the space that's turning! Gravity my friend. You cannot deny that it exist. It, gravity, curves space, anything traveling in a straight line continues to do so feeling no force, and curve with space. I do not believe that it can be established that the 2 sides will touch though, at least I don't believe that they can touch, perhaps im not understanding something myself. Im really going to try an explain it easy. It remains in that form that you explained above, space is the curved property, the bar remains rigid and structually unchangeable.Now, here's the problem. To show you this you would need to understand the mathematical asspect of GR where conceptual explanations stop working. Im barely understanding it and im in class on this shit.This is why you've been asked to simple concede that you don't fully grasp this stuff an bow out of the debate.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Ah, thanks straggler. I didn't know he had established the topology. No wonder it's been so hard for him to grasp it, thats a complete sphere he has to conceptualize a bar curving.And since the bar is obviously hypothesized, there's no way to show him that it will curve other than showing him the math; which he will not understand.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

Never my intent to be rude, I would like fo ryou to really learn this stuff though. I can't explain how cool it is when you do.Last attempt LOL. Ok. This is easy to understand if you remember one simple thing, gravity.Gravitational lensing established that a photon, which is massless energy, curved because of the effects of gravity on the space around the mass object. Now think about that. Basically nothingness was curved. If it curved, what made it curve?Answer: The curvature in space. Simply put, a mass energy, i.e. Earth, distorts space so that anything going straight follows the curvature of space. And remember, it, whats following the curve, lets say your bar, is feeling no force on it. It has no idea it's curving. Now doesn't that blow your mind?. I don't think you understand how this sounds. That statement 'space includes energy and force' can mean so many different things. I don't honestly know how you are applying it as an argument against GR. Im trying to follow this. First curvature of space, since it is a result of mass density on space itself, requires mass objects. Second, do you even know what the singularity is? You understand it's not a thing that has any properties, right? When you use the word 'began' you are not speaking about the cosmological model of the BB, you are thinking theologically. Theological concepts of beginning and creation have to be abandoned momentarily when your brain is tuned for physics. If not you keep these Earthly ideas of starting points and beginning of things. You can't think that way in physics. Im not asking you to accept this one, just recognize that the mathematical explanations that explain this, and the theory of GR, are over your head and that you don't fully grasp it. Maybe you don't know anything about space yet. Don't feel bad man, Einstein screwed up ALL of physics with this shit.And lets remember what you are asking. You have a hypothetical bar, obviously we can't ever have an observable experiment on this so, the only way possible, to show that conceptually the properties of space will cause the bar to curve with(remember that WITH) space, is in a mathematical formula. And here's where even Einstein would fail to how you how space curves because you don't know the math behind it, and so you'd have to take our word for it. And judging by your 6100 or so posts, if you still hold to these ideas about space, you don't trust anybody! I don't see where GR violates this belief. Let Einstein inside that head of yours Buz, I promise you'll love it man. Let him change your concept of space like he did for the rest of the physics community. Come to the dark side Luke, sorry I couldn't help it. I do and sadly it's the very reason why I feel you should learn this stuff, because your position is wrong. But, we'll fight another day Buz.--Oni

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Finally a clear explanation...thanks Mod

Actually Rick, the orbiting of the planets predicted by GR are almost exactly the same as those predicted by the Newtonian theory of gravity. The biggest deviation was Mercury because it is closest to the Sun and feels the most gravity.Edited by onifre, : spelling, as alwaysEdited by onifre, : No reason given.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Well first I would like to say that, "we really don't know", if a very humble thing to admit and shows honesty, rather than just assume you know the answer.I'll do my best to answer but the question is a bit confusing. Space does not consist of any 'properties', so to ask what properties does it have, is nonsensical. But, here's a better way to look at it.First, ask yourself, "How do we know it's curved?" Well we observed light curve.Then, ask yourself "What would cause that light to curve?"..."Something has to be distorted to cause a massless photon to curve?"Well it turns out that mass density, or mass energy in GR terms, distorts the geomerty(R) or the space/time around it and causes anything with energy to curve. How much distortion? Well it's equal to the Gravitational(G) Constant times the Energy(E) density of an object.The equation looks like this (R = GE). It's alot more complicated than just that since the geometry of space/time(R) is a collection of 16 numbers called the Matrix, or Tensor. I haven't figured all this shit out myself either.Now, here's where it gets confusing a bit, the mass object has energy density because it is in motion thru space. Think of it as a boat going through water causing waves. The same way water distorts when it hits the boat and follows the curves of the boat; so to does space when an energy density is in motion.So, lets recap.

• 1. We see light curve, known as gravitational lensing.
• 2. We can caulculate how much curvature based off of energy density(mass of the object).
• 3. And we know that motion causes the energy density to curve the space around it.

• Keeping all of this in mind, lets try to put it into perspective for you.

Space is a thing, it experiences distortion and causes anything around it to curve, but it's not a thing in the physical sense. The effect of gravity is basically the distortion, the warped spacetime, the curvature.In Newtonian physics gravity was thought to be a force. In GR gravity is no longer a force it is the curvature of spacetime. When 2 objects fall, they are not falling because there is a force behind them, they are falling because they are following the curvature of spacetime. That is why they fall at equal times. And Einstein predicted this.And Buz there is alot of mathematics that equates all of this perfectly.Time is also affected by the effect of energy density on space, since it is spacetime, together. And there is a formula that equates the difference in time from a clock on Earth and one at high altitudes, GPS satalites use this formula.So as you can see, well I hope you can see, physicist do see an observable effect on spacetime, plus can calculate the geometry of the curvature of spacetime to make predictions and hit it dead on every time. Spacetime is something, in the sense that the effects on it affect other things, that is why I told you that it doesn't have any 'properties'. And with the theory of GR we can understand this phenomenon, and we should be happy to do so because we are the only species on the planet, and for all we know the universe, that has been able to do this. It has solid math, it is beyond accurate in it's predictions, and is used everyday by humans...it's time to show it a bit of respect Buz, don't you think? At least try to learn about it and not question things beyond your ability to comprehend. This stuff is not easy to just grasp, believe me I know, but it is understandable once you change your concept of what you think you know about space Buz.Hope this helped.--Onifre

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Wait, don't get confused here. You said that many in this forum have given you the "I don't know" answer. I only commented on those peoples honesty in telling you "hey, I don't know", instead of bullshitting you about the whole thing.What I explained to you about spaces' properties creates no problem since I derive my answers from physical laws and observable tests. This is not my PoV, this is what is taught to physics students, which by the way I am one so im not an expert by any means. Im trying my best to convey what I am being taught. There are experts in this forum who will correct any of my mistakes, even though I usually don't venture into areas of physics that I don't understand yet, so I don't think there will be any big discrepancies. You seemed to be asking for physical properties in the last post. Space does not have any physical properties that we can refer to that make sense to us, space does however, have geometric properties that can be distorted making it,(space), a thing. In that sense it's properties can make sense to us. Also, in that sense a property of space would be it's curvature. I need you to step outside the box here with me sir. I think you are the one who is defying my reality Buz, sorry I had to throw in a joke with all the tension in this thread.Let me answer from the first point you make, Yes. I would not say alleged. But, yes it's geometric, and that is also it's property, and it can be warped by energy density. We visually observe this phenomenon so you can't just say "no thats bullshit". There is no clarification needed, you just missed the point of my analogy. The point was to show you a different way of thinking when you are thinking about spaces' properties. The property is the curvature that is placed on it by an object.The boat analogy was to compare the affects of an object in the water, to the water, to those placed on space by an object in space, on space. That way you can understand what is meant by space having properties.---------------------------------------------------------------------Just a bit of advice Buz, you might be better off trying to open up your mind to these new concepts. Honestly, you gain nothing by just claiming that space is not curved. You are simply denying yourself the ability to comprehend this stuff by sticking to your illusionary concepts of a flat space.Question: If space is not curved, then what prevents Earth, or any other planet for that matter, from falling straight into the Sun?*Hint: the answer is the curvature of spacetime, but I'll let you research it.--Oni

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Buz would you do me the favor of watching the first 8 minutes of this lecture. Listen to what the professor is say carefully, this may help you understand why you're not grasping this and why you need to let go of your current way of thinking.Enjoy,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Eeuqh9QfNITo Moderator: The lecture is off topic but I feel the first 8 minutes of the lecture will help Buz realize that his logical human senses of space, do not help make sense of the obscurity of space.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

I just wanted you to listen to the first 8 minutes, as the professor breaksdown what it's like to understand physics.