Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8890 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 02-15-2019 3:48 PM
194 online now:
AZPaul3, DrJones*, dwise1, JonF, PaulK, Tangle (6 members, 188 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 847,540 Year: 2,577/19,786 Month: 659/1,918 Week: 247/266 Day: 19/92 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
45
6
78910Next
Author Topic:   Church spreading aids
gene90
Member (Idle past 1865 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 76 of 143 (26929)
12-17-2002 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by nator
12-16-2002 7:24 PM


quote:
Unrealistic

This is the unbending part I guess. AIDS is avoidable. If they won't avoid it, there's nothing I or anybody else here can do.

quote:
But what if he didn't?

Then it's his fault and she'll get the disease. And by the way, I do suspect that most of Africa's problem stems from male misbehavior.

quote:
Or, are you saying that I never noticed it before now because we have often been on the smae side of an issue?

Yes. I've always been accused of being snobby and condescending. This is nothing new, only the group accusing me of being snobby and condescending is different.

And by the way, I think it is because I am rather arrogant sometimes.

quote:
So have yours, Gene.

They have changed towards you and your ilk because of the criticism I suddenly seem to be getting all the time, especially regarding my choice of religion.

quote:
No, it is the fact that you are using sloppy debate tactics more and more, and illogical arguments

There may be some truth to that claim. I'm always outnumbered now and I have never been able to hold up a decent debate when outnumbered. I've lost debates to YECs that way in other forums, not because I couldn't outdo their arguments but because I was put into a rush to keep up and got very sloppy. Plus I can't debate at all once I lose my cool.

Also, I seem to be up against more experienced and more skillful opposition than the average, newcomer YEC that stumbles in here.

So it's not that my debate style is necessarily getting worse it could just mean that (1) I'm under more pressure (2) the opposition is stronger and (3) you're paying attention to my arguments for the first time.

quote:
You certainly come across as uncaring and seem to be saying that people with AIDS get what they deserve.

I'm not going to say that they deserve anything. Disease doesn't work like that. It has a random aspect to it. A lot of people are suffering who did nothing wrong to contract the disease. And then you have the children orphaned by the disease. I am however saying that this epidemic could be brought under control if people were more monogamous and, as you suggested, better educated. Behavior still plays a huge part in this epidemic.

[This message has been edited by gene90, 12-17-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by nator, posted 12-16-2002 7:24 PM nator has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by metatron, posted 12-18-2002 8:49 AM gene90 has responded

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 143 (27185)
12-18-2002 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by gene90
12-17-2002 12:12 AM


This is a copy of an e-mail sent out by planned parenthood.

..................................

The Fifth Asia and Pacific Population Conference closed today with a resounding victory for reproductive health and rights. Despite the heavy handed tactics of the U.S. delegation, Asia-Pacific countries rejected the Bush Administration's anti-health and anti-women agenda. In an effort to advance their agenda to overturn laws and policies that protect reproductive freedom, the Bush Administration made explicit their position that life begins at conception, attempting to pave the way for eliminating access to abortion in the U.S. and around the world. U.S. proposals to water down sex education, promote abstinence until marriage as the centerpiece of HIV/AIDS prevention efforts, and undermine efforts to prevent unsafe abortions and its consequences were met with resounding opposition.

Throughout the week, senior officials from countries as diverse as India, Pakistan, China, Turkey, Fiji, New Zealand, Iran, Indonesia and the Philippines spoke forcefully against the Bush Administration. In the end, every nation spoke one-by-one opposing each of the Bush Administration's anti-health proposals and stood united in their support of reproductive health and rights for the world's citizens.

For more information read Planned Parenthood's press release or
Yahoo's press release.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about/pr/021213_bangkok.html
.....................................................

Isn't america the "civilized" one?.

[This message has been edited by Metatron, 12-18-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by gene90, posted 12-17-2002 12:12 AM gene90 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by gene90, posted 01-02-2003 2:01 PM metatron has responded

  
Jovianboy
Unregistered


Message 78 of 143 (27269)
12-18-2002 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by metatron
11-28-2002 6:05 PM


quote:

Originally posted by Metatron:
The catholic church is sending missionaries to african countries suffering in the current aids epidemic too "educate" the populace about the evil of contraception.
If ever there was definative proof of the non-existance of god its the sick shit that gets done in his name. Any bead jigglers care to defend this?.


I'm sorry, I know I'm not a member(yet), but I can't let this one slide.

If what Metatron says is true (and it may well be), it is in no way "definative proof" of the non-existance of god. I cannot think of a worse ad-hominem attack on theism. This reminds me of (some) creationists who try to use the fact that neo-Darwinian theory was perverted by the Nazi party in its attack on "lesser races", as proof that evolution is immoral, and therefore invalid. Ridiculous. The actions of some followers of a certain belief system or theory are in no way relevant to whether or not that belief system reflects reality. In my opinion, there most probably isn't a god. But illogical attacks do not advance the argument of the atheist, any more than they advance the argument of the theist.

I'm still in two minds about joining this forum. Creationism appalls me as a perverse distortion of science and religion. I am an atheist with a Christian upbringing, and dispite my disbelief, I have often been surrounded by Christian people very dear to me (including my mother who is a deacon with the Anglican church). These are level-headed Christians, people who see the Old Testament for the (religiously relevant) allegory that it is. The vast majority of them oppose the creationist cult - not just becuase it's an attack on science, but also because it's a major diservice to mainstream Christianity.

But I get the feeling that many people here think that "Christian equals creationist". This is disappointing, because I always believed that the false dichotomy that says "evolutionists are never Christians" and "Christians are never evolutionists" was an idiotic notion held only in the minds of the creationists (to simplify their world-view, as they are so wont to do). But could it be so with some Evolutionists as well? Would many posters on both sides be happier if the forum were renamed: "Christianity versus Evolution"?

Hmm...

JB


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by metatron, posted 11-28-2002 6:05 PM metatron has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Quetzal, posted 12-19-2002 2:32 AM You have not yet responded
 Message 91 by gene90, posted 01-01-2003 6:12 PM You have not yet responded

    
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 79 of 143 (27309)
12-19-2002 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jovianboy
12-18-2002 7:35 PM


JB:

In defense of this particular BB, if you look around a bit I think you will find that there are quite a few on the evo side who are Christians, beginning with the almighty Admin himself. Few posters on the evo side make the error of conflating "Christian" with "creationist". We also have several Moslems on either side of the divide - one evo, one died-in-the-wool creationist, one on the fence, and one I-have-no-idea-but-it's-pretty-strange. Also, the moderating on this board is some of the fairest I have seen anywhere on the 'net.

Having said that, there ARE posters on the evo side who have significant axes to grind with Christianity itself. And there are others who, while questioning Christianity and/or other religious beliefs, do so primarily because it's an interesting exercise. They're fairly easy to identify. We also get the random drive-by "eviluyton is bad cuz God sayd so in the bible" Christians. It is, after all, a public board.

I hope you choose to register and stick around. It is one of the more interesting boards I've discovered dealing with the evo-cre debate. Fresh input is always valuable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jovianboy, posted 12-18-2002 7:35 PM Jovianboy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-20-2002 8:19 PM Quetzal has responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 143 (27536)
12-20-2002 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Quetzal
12-19-2002 2:32 AM


Looking at the title of this thread I was really hit by something. You would think the church was running around with needles containing the virus poking every African they could possibly get.

The church is not spreading the virus, the people are spreading the virus by the behaviour and lifestyle they choose.

If you don't like it go do something about it. What are you doing for those suffering in Africa? How many "toys" do you have? Take the plank out of your own eye before you go chasing after someone elses speck.

I see this kind of thing all the time, the church is doing this God does that. Really? Think about who is doing what.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-20-2002]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Quetzal, posted 12-19-2002 2:32 AM Quetzal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by John, posted 12-20-2002 10:21 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded
 Message 82 by metatron, posted 12-21-2002 12:58 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded
 Message 84 by Quetzal, posted 12-23-2002 3:05 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 143 (27555)
12-20-2002 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by funkmasterfreaky
12-20-2002 8:19 PM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Looking at the title of this thread I was really hit by something. You would think the church was running around with needles containing the virus poking every African they could possibly get.

The church is not spreading the virus, the people are spreading the virus by the behaviour and lifestyle they choose.


And the RCC is opposing the only hope most of those people have.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-20-2002 8:19 PM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 143 (27574)
12-21-2002 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by funkmasterfreaky
12-20-2002 8:19 PM


If you don't like it go do something about it. What are you doing for those suffering in Africa? How many "toys" do you have? Take the plank out of your own eye before you go chasing after someone elses speck.

Military peacekeeping service keeping different religious factions away from each others throats has been my contribution. Whats yours?.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-20-2002 8:19 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-22-2002 11:50 PM metatron has responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 143 (27702)
12-22-2002 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by metatron
12-21-2002 12:58 AM


Military peacekeeping service keeping different religious factions away from each others throats has been my contribution. Whats yours?.

You guys do peace keeping eh? I thought only Canada sent peace keepers. I love this idea of helping out, take your guns into their country and point them at peoples heads. Who's killing who? If a situation is tense the best idea is to bring in more weapons, and trained killers?

I pray for the world. *bracing for mockery* that's my contribution, I'm convinced it's much more effective than holding a gun to someones head.

Oh btw, don't give me this "war is religions fault" crap, what a weak cop out, economics has more to do with this than anything.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by metatron, posted 12-21-2002 12:58 AM metatron has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by metatron, posted 12-29-2002 10:22 AM funkmasterfreaky has responded
 Message 98 by nator, posted 01-06-2003 1:26 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 84 of 143 (27712)
12-23-2002 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by funkmasterfreaky
12-20-2002 8:19 PM


Just out of curiosity, Funk, your reply had what to do with my post?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-20-2002 8:19 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-23-2002 4:26 AM Quetzal has responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 143 (27715)
12-23-2002 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Quetzal
12-23-2002 3:05 AM


Sorry Quetzal it didn't have anything to do with your post. I was just looking through the topic list, and was struck with what the title of this thread seemed to be suggesting.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Quetzal, posted 12-23-2002 3:05 AM Quetzal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Quetzal, posted 12-23-2002 4:53 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 3914 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 86 of 143 (27717)
12-23-2002 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by funkmasterfreaky
12-23-2002 4:26 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Sorry Quetzal it didn't have anything to do with your post. I was just looking through the topic list, and was struck with what the title of this thread seemed to be suggesting.
Okay. Just a bit confused there. BTW: I agreed with your post, earlier in the thread, which was what was even more confusing.

Unfortunately, dogma (in this case the RCC's unbending, midieval, extra-biblical stance on prophylactics) appears to be winning out over reason in this particular instance, however. There is no one single solution to Africa's AIDS pandemic - like so many other things, it will require multiple approaches to solve. The RCC's position is not helpful, and might even be harmful. I think that's what underlies the basic disagreement you see on this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-23-2002 4:26 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
metatron
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 143 (28055)
12-29-2002 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by funkmasterfreaky
12-22-2002 11:50 PM


Oh btw, don't give me this "war is religions fault" crap, what a weak cop out, economics has more to do with this than anything.

[/B][/QUOTE]

So when muslims fill mass graves with christians in bosnia its "economic" is it. And when christians ethnically cleanse an area thats "economic" too. The israeli's destroying palestinian settlements whilst building their own in defiance of un resolutions is "economic".

The attack on the world trade centre certainly had an economic effect but that was a side effect of attacking an american symbol on american soil.

Religion is the single greatest cause of pain and suffering the world has ever known.

I'll tell you what is "economic" the behavior of the vatican bank for the last few hundred years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-22-2002 11:50 PM funkmasterfreaky has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 5:49 AM metatron has not yet responded
 Message 90 by fozzi, posted 12-30-2002 11:54 AM metatron has not yet responded

  
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 143 (28092)
12-30-2002 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by metatron
12-29-2002 10:22 AM


Look, I'm not trying to say that fanatic religious groups have not been responsible for wars past and present. I am however tired of the statement that religion is the cause of war. Do you truly believe there would be no war if there was no religion? People fight over all sorts of things not just religion.

I, also believe the vatican to be a crooked economics based organization. Please refrain from connecting me or what I believe to the vatican, it's a misrepresentation.

Maybe we should agree to disagree on this war point, as this thread is about what the CATHOLIC church is doing in Africa. I apologize for running this thread off topic.

------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by metatron, posted 12-29-2002 10:22 AM metatron has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by John, posted 12-30-2002 10:03 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 143 (28112)
12-30-2002 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by funkmasterfreaky
12-30-2002 5:49 AM


quote:
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Look, I'm not trying to say that fanatic religious groups have not been responsible for wars past and present. I am however tired of the statement that religion is the cause of war. Do you truly believe there would be no war if there was no religion? People fight over all sorts of things not just religion.

You are right. People would still be fighting even in the absense of religion. Religion does set itself up as a mechanism for preventing such things. You know, a force for peace and love and such like. But that simply isn't true.

------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-30-2002 5:49 AM funkmasterfreaky has not yet responded

  
fozzi
Unregistered


Message 90 of 143 (28119)
12-30-2002 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by metatron
12-29-2002 10:22 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Metatron:
[B]So when muslims fill mass graves with christians in bosnia its "economic" is it. And when christians ethnically cleanse an area thats "economic" too. The israeli's destroying palestinian settlements whilst building their own in defiance of un resolutions is "economic".[B][/QUOTE]

Yep it is, the basic problem of economics is "limited resources infinite wants." all those examples are one group taking the resources from another, sure they are religious groups, but you see the same thing through history with secular nations and empires, gangs and their "turf" etc...

Anytime a group of people start identifying themselves in a way that excludes other groups the possibility of war to acquire more of the finite resources available is possible (and in many cases highly likely)....

Religions do often foster this sort of group identity but then so do sports teams, geographic regions, nations etc.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by metatron, posted 12-29-2002 10:22 AM metatron has not yet responded

    
Prev1
...
45
6
78910Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019