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Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
Phat
Member
Posts: 15653
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 71 of 182 (811957)
06-13-2017 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Stile
06-13-2017 3:41 PM


Re: From the graveyard
Is there something about free will that you find compelling?
Stile,2009 version writes:

Our genes constrain our free will a lot more. We can't choose to fly. We can't choose to breathe underwater. We can't choose to instantly travel from one side of the Earth to the other. We can't even choose which planet to live on.

*Yet, we can choose if we want to wear shoes or sandals. We can choose to wear glasses (with no lenses if we don't require them). We can choose to set broken bones and heal them so our lives are not ended prematurely. We can choose who we make friends with and how much we learn from others. We can choose to hurt others or to help them. We can choose who we marry and spend our lives with. We can choose whether or not we should have children, or even when we would like to have children.

Do we actually make those decisions? Or are they pre-programmed into our brains/bodies?

How do you test something like this? What is the difference between "a pre-programmed decision that we think is a real decision but actually isn't" vs. "a real, free choice"?

I'm not sure. As far as we can tell (statistically speaking) our decisions are "real, free choices". But, well, if everything we do is actually pre-programmed, is it possible for us to learn the difference?

Of course, the question then becomes: "if there is no detectable difference... does it really matter"?

So, we have a task:

1. Devise a way to specifically test between "real, free choice" and "fake, but seems like free choice".
2a. If we succeed, then we just take the results of the test, then we'll know if our free choice is real or fake.
2b. If we fail, then we have a new question:
3. If we cannot differentiate between real or fake free choice, does it make a difference to us?
4a. My answer to the above question is "no".
4b. If "yes", why and how?

Edited by Phat, : helping Stile resurrect his old topic dem bones dem bones


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Stile, posted 06-13-2017 3:41 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 9:10 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15653
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 117 of 182 (812374)
06-16-2017 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Tangle
06-15-2017 5:12 PM


Truth May Be Stranger Than Fiction
Tangle writes:

Removing the fiction would remove the problem.

I'm not sure I agree but perhaps I don't understand.

Why do you think we still need these ridiculous imaginary beings?
Perhaps some of us don't see them as imaginary nor ridiculous. How can you be so sure that evidential reality is all that there is?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2017 5:12 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2017 12:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15653
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 125 of 182 (812616)
06-18-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Tangle
06-16-2017 7:44 PM


Anchors Aweigh
Tangle writes:

It sounds like you found another crutch.

One man's crutch is another man's anchor. An anchor, in this case, is a world view.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 06-16-2017 7:44 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15653
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 127 of 182 (812688)
06-19-2017 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Stile
06-19-2017 9:23 AM


Freedom To Think
Stile writes:

Removing religion won't give you the solution you're looking for.
And it would definitely hurt many, many innocent people.

I agree. Personally, I believe that educating people about the prophecies, the reality of human nature, and the nature of a self-fulfilling prophecy will prepare people to look critically at our beliefs and our needs.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Stile, posted 06-19-2017 9:23 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15653
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 153 of 182 (814044)
07-03-2017 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Tangle
07-03-2017 3:56 PM


How Free Are We?
tangle writes:

we know what's happening to religious belief across the Western world - it's declining quickly. The USA is an absurd outlier, but even there it's on the way out.

You seem to love this statistic but it is not entirely conclusive. Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!

Believers will not dissappear quite as fast as you think (and perhaps hope) unless the doctrine of the Rapture is proven correct.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 3:56 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 5:09 PM Phat has responded
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-03-2017 6:17 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 11:55 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15653
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 161 of 182 (814096)
07-04-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tangle
07-03-2017 5:09 PM


Re: How Free Are We?
tangle, replying to NCE writes:

You have discovered a 'personal' religion. That is you now think you have a personal relationship with the god of your choosing and are pushing away from standard definitions. This is pretty classical. Soon you'll beasking others to join you in your living room and starting a spin off group.

I agree with NCE that its all about community. You prefer a community without churches.

tangle writes:

It'll just fade away naturally.

Here I disagree with you. As NCE asserts, organized religion may continue to fade away but personal belief will keep it alive.

NCE writes:

People don't go there for the beliefs, they're participating in a community.

Tangle writes:

That's not just wrong, it's also silly.

Only because you are astounded by how many nutters come out of the woodwork. And yet people still paint themselves orange and wear a barrel to a "silly" football game. People still have groups to honor numerous ridiculous causes...such as a Star Trek group, an Elvis group, or a UFO group. As NCE states...its not the belief its the community.

Maybe we should have a Tangle group. Members meet and pat themselves on the back for being rational!

Phat writes:

Watch how many people again believe once a global crisis takes away their material security!


Tangle writes:

What is it with you guys - you actually hope for these things....?

I certainly don't. I am as much of a materialist as any of you.

I certainly would not take away anyone's freedom to believe anything or start a group for any reason.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tangle, posted 07-03-2017 5:09 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Tangle, posted 07-04-2017 11:41 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15653
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 164 of 182 (814141)
07-05-2017 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by ringo
07-04-2017 11:55 AM


Re: How Free Are We?
What do you mean by "empty"?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 11:55 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 07-05-2017 3:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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