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Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
1.61803
Member (Idle past 531 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 87 of 182 (812084)
06-14-2017 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Tangle
06-14-2017 2:01 PM


Something tells me that if someone found ancient religious text that gave detailed mathematical proofs for gravity. You would scoff and say meh, religious babble of no importance. Ha ha I joke.
Imo,
painting something as being derived from religious origins does not diminish what knowledge it may impart to our collective human understanding of our world. We all had to start somewhere.
Religion and mythology was part of that story.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Tangle, posted 06-14-2017 2:01 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 531 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 118 of 182 (812388)
06-16-2017 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Tangle
06-15-2017 3:13 PM


Tangle writes:

I also think that it really does matter that adults rely on imaginary beings to make them feel better about themselves - that's not healthy.

Hi Tangle, interesting points from you.

I will say that me being in the medical field may influence my perspective. It has been shown that stress is one of the leading causes of damage to the body. Anything that can be done to help alleviate that stress will pay dividends in reducing the inflamation and un-healthy effects of damaging stress.

If a person is mollified by the idea of the imaginary sky man and that is how he/she manages his/her stress and anxiety then it is imo a healthy endeavour.

I take my 11 year old to mass on Sundays not because I am a devout Catholic. I do it because it give us a opportunity to do something together. To be social, to sing and listen to the choir, to have a part of my past experiences shared and hopefully instill some good values. Someday she will not believe in the Easter bunny/Santa Clause/ the imaginary sky man. And that's ok too. We can always have that discussion.

I actually envy the devout and faithful because where they have certainty, I have angst and yes probably a extra measure of stress.

And I know you will probably think that I can do something social and together with my daughter that does not involve religion and mythology. But this is after all part of what makes me, me.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Tangle, posted 06-15-2017 3:13 PM Tangle has responded

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 531 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 177 of 182 (842493)
11-01-2018 5:50 PM


I came across a interesting article concerning freewill vs determinism.

I realize this is a ancient thread. Of the many discussions we all have had on EvC concerning freewill vs determinism the consensus usually ended up as reality is both deterministic and probabilistic . I have no problem with this. Some proponents of the deterministic only camp was that the decisions to do things whilst the brain is being monitored was that decisions we are conscious of (like to move your hand) were actually decided prior. Well this article is interesting and I thought I'd share.

https://byrdnick.com/...298/unconscious-intentions-free-will

Edited by 1.61803, : removed word :we:

Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Stile, posted 11-02-2018 9:03 AM 1.61803 has responded

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 531 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 179 of 182 (842735)
11-06-2018 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Stile
11-02-2018 9:03 AM


Re: Two cents
Hi Stile,

Stile writes:

It's just... there's way too many red-flags and possible-sources-of-error here for me to consider any of the results reliable or conclusive.

The science is fairly established and documented. It is a fact that scientist can tell up to 7 seconds in some instances you are going to make a choice and move before you are even aware of a conscious choice to do so. And thus some proponents of determinism use this as evidence that we do not have free will. The article is meant to illustrate that regardless of being aware of the choice or not does not negate free will.

From the article

quote:
5. Conclusion

We have arrived, then, at the following conclusion: whether or not a person is free is not a matter of their becoming aware of an intention as (or before) the intention (or its correlates) form. Indeed, it is not surprising, upon reflection, that we have to form an intention before we can become aware of it—regardless of whether we are “free”.


If your brain makes a decision to do something and there is a lag of time until you or that thing you call you says "hey I think Im gonna do this." Then you do it. Who made the decision?
Well your brain did and thats still you. clear as mud I know.

I believe there is a element of randomness in our reality as well as a deterministic element. We can choose a branch of probable out comes in some action that will result in (A) or (B). But once we knock that domino down we are at the mercy of determinism and what ever that entails. Some will say AH-Ha! given a powerful enough computer the out come and all possibilities could be predicted. To a extent I suppose so but since initial conditions can not be perfectly recreated would it be the same? Probably close enough to place a bet I suppose but hell anything can happen theoretically.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Stile, posted 11-02-2018 9:03 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Stile, posted 11-06-2018 3:39 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded
 Message 181 by caffeine, posted 11-08-2018 3:09 PM 1.61803 has responded

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 531 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 182 of 182 (842805)
11-08-2018 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by caffeine
11-08-2018 3:09 PM


Re: Two cents
Hello Caffeine,

caffeine writes:

Stile was raising one such difficulty. Simply saying 'no, it's a fact' doesn't do much to address the difficulty.

I am not dismissive of peoples opinions and if my post came off that way it was not my intention.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by caffeine, posted 11-08-2018 3:09 PM caffeine has acknowledged this reply

  
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