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Author Topic:   Free will but how free really?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 78 of 182 (812056)
06-14-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by New Cat's Eye
06-14-2017 1:28 PM


NCE writes:

I think you're looking at it backwards, at least from my perspective. I'm a religious person, and I believe that we have free will. But that belief stems, not from a religious position, but from observations of the real world.

Free will is a religious concept which in reality it doesn't exist. People have the ability to do the things the wish to do but within limits - in social science terms it's 'bounded'.

The bounds within which we can act are created by all sorts of stuff such as our disposition, societal norms, social upbringing and even our genes. I could no more strangle and rape a child than I could fly to the moon but there are those that can. Their free will appears to be freer than mine.

There's a lot more to this, in that the vast majority of our behaviours are governed not by our conscious, choice-making mind, but our unconscious, autonomous systems and how we feel and behave is controlled by hormonal responses to situations which differ between individuals and by time of day, day of month, age, illness, drugs etc etc.

Freewill is a fiction and God-given freewill doubly so. We are a product of competitive evolution, god has zip to do with it so it's a totally specious argument. It's angels on pinhead stuff.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 1:28 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 2:58 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 82 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 3:27 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 06-14-2017 4:37 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 90 by Taq, posted 06-14-2017 5:10 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 80 of 182 (812071)
06-14-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Stile
06-14-2017 2:58 PM


Stile writes:

Are you saying that the concept of "everyone has equal free will" is religious?

Yes - it's a religious invention.

Perhaps I'm using the term free will different from you, though.. and that's just where my confusion comes from.

Free will as opposed to what?

We have freedom of action within our physical and emotional capabilities. It's not a 'thing' in itself, it's just a necessary part of our make up and life. Christian religion makes it a point of dogma, part of the Genesis and the 'Fall' story. It's cobblers, it's simply a result of our competitive evolutionary history. Without religion, the concept would not exist.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 2:58 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 3:24 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 4:05 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 83 of 182 (812079)
06-14-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Stile
06-14-2017 3:24 PM


Stile writes:

Do you have any educationary place I can see and look this up?

Not really - it's been a religious and philosophical obsession for centuries, all pre-science. The Christian church picked it up and created sin with it.

Coerced will.

But that state of mind doesn't exist. It's a made-up idea. The only reality we know of is bounded action.

None of that makes floods something made up by religion.

Floods aren't made up by religion, but the stories about them are. Freewill is a story, it's a simplistic myth.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Stile, posted 06-14-2017 3:24 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 86 of 182 (812082)
06-14-2017 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by New Cat's Eye
06-14-2017 4:05 PM


NCE writes:

That's not true, why do you say it?

I've already moderated my position to say that it's a philosophical/religious concept - pre-science. If that helps at all.

It also has ramifications for legal systems and what is and is not a crime and what an appropriate punishment would be.

Sure, intent is a necessary part of our law. I'm not denying that people have the ability to choose their actions, I'm saying that the ability to choose is not the black and white thing that religion paints it - in most respect our ability is severely restricted.

I don't subscribe to The Fall and I still think free will is an interesting concept to discuss... even completely outside of religion.

It's a great thing to discuss but it needs to be liberated from the restrictions of religion and philosophy. It needs to take on some reality. And change its bloody name to something more sensible.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 4:05 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 89 of 182 (812089)
06-14-2017 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by 1.61803
06-14-2017 4:37 PM


1.6etc writes:

Something tells me that if someone found ancient religious text that gave detailed mathematical proofs for gravity. You would scoff and say meh, religious babble of no importance. Ha ha I joke.

I'm waiting, try me.

painting something as being derived from religious origins does not diminish what knowledge it may impart to our collective human understanding of our world.

Off hand I can't think of any knowledge that came from religion, can you? There must be something, Christianity has been around for a couple of thousand years. It's an interesting 'what have the Romans ever done for us?' question. Generally, my impression is that religion suppresses the acquisition of knowledge, hence my allergic reaction to it.

We all had to start somewhere.

Yeh, but I was hoping we'd moved on.

Religion and mythology was part of that story.

Ignominious and wrong though it often was.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by 1.61803, posted 06-14-2017 4:37 PM 1.61803 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 10:41 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:48 PM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 93 of 182 (812141)
06-15-2017 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Faith
06-14-2017 10:48 PM


Faith writes:

The Reformation let loose an explosion of knowledge that had been suppressed by the previous thousand years of Romanist superstition and oppression including the suppression of the Bible.

Well I'm not going to disagree that religion restriced the growth of knowledge prior to the reformation but I'm also not going to agree that a different flavour of the same religion released it. You are a perfect example of how that belief prevents the progress of knowledge - you and your 'reformed' religion forces you to deny almost all branches of modern science. If your lot we're in charge, we'd be back in the dark ages. Your reformed religion is campaigning against knowledge gain still.

In fact it was the release of the Bible from the obfuscating Latin into the languages of the common people that liberated the western world.

It certainly stopped the rot by letting the people hear and understand the gibberish they were actually chanting in their churches. I can't believe that that was a result they expected.

So yes, the breakdown of religious dogma and populous control by religions provided a catalyst but it was the Enlightenment and the prior invention of scientific method that started the unstoppable knowledge gain.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Faith, posted 06-14-2017 10:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 94 of 182 (812142)
06-15-2017 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by New Cat's Eye
06-14-2017 10:41 PM


NCE writes:

If it counted as knowledge then it wouldn't count as religion there's a reason we say it takes faith...

Pretty useless then, the best we can hope for religion then is that it doesn't get in the way of human progress like it did in the past.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2017 10:41 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 10:46 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 106 of 182 (812244)
06-15-2017 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by New Cat's Eye
06-15-2017 10:46 AM


NCE writes:

For me, religion has been quite useful.

It has personal uses - the opium of the masses and all that - it's a bi-product though; making you feel better about yourself in the here-and-now is not religion's real purpose.

And the fact that it's imaginary is a real problem for man's long-term mental health. Or it would be if it wasn't pretty clear that religion's influence is waning all over the developed world and that countries with the greatest populations of atheists are the happiest overall.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 10:46 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Stile, posted 06-15-2017 2:54 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2017 3:11 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 109 of 182 (812251)
06-15-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Stile
06-15-2017 2:54 PM


Stile writes:

I don't think it matters what religion's "real purpose" is.

I suspect you are a nice liberal religionist.

Most of modern western democracies are recovering religionoholics and generally getting on ok, by not bothering other faiths and non-faiths too much. Their political influence is waning and although their bigotry is still apparent in some areas such as sexuality and birth and death, it's definately on its last legs as far as control is concerned.

But there are some other less benign religions that do feel that it matters what religions real purpose is and are prepared to do some dispiccable things to help it along.

I also think that it really does matter that adults rely on imaginary beings to make them feel better about themselves - that's not healthy.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Stile, posted 06-15-2017 2:54 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Stile, posted 06-15-2017 4:13 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 118 by 1.61803, posted 06-16-2017 10:15 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 111 of 182 (812276)
06-15-2017 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Stile
06-15-2017 4:13 PM


Stile writes:

Despicable things should be stopped because they are despicable. Regardless of what type of people do them or why.

Sure, but still they do it at least partly because the believe a fiction. Removing the fiction would remove the problem.

Humans have had instincts that rely on imaginary things to make them feel better and keep them safe since before we evolved into "humans."

We've come along way since we lived in caves and played kill or be killed without iPads. Why do you think we still need these rediculous imaginary beings?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Stile, posted 06-15-2017 4:13 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 9:15 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 126 by Stile, posted 06-19-2017 9:23 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 120 of 182 (812420)
06-16-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
06-16-2017 9:15 AM


Re: Truth May Be Stranger Than Fiction
Phat writes:

I'm not sure I agree but perhaps I don't understand.

If you remove the cause, people can't die or live their life for it.

Perhaps some of us don't see them as imaginary nor ridiculous.

Sure, but as they ARE both imaginary and ridiculous .....

How can you be so sure that evidential reality is all that there is?

Because there's absolutely no reason at all to think that there is - certainly nothing a ludicrous as the mythical guy(s) in the Bible. Please point me to non-evidential reality. Does that phrase actually mean something to you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 06-16-2017 9:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 121 of 182 (812429)
06-16-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by 1.61803
06-16-2017 10:15 AM


1.6etc writes:

If a person is mollified by the idea of the imaginary sky man and that is how he/she manages his/her stress and anxiety then it is imo a healthy endeavour.

Debateable - it may just be a way of avoiding a real problem, or putting it back. Of course the very existence of religious beliefs are founded on man's insecurity - all the evidence is that belief in deities or ancestral spooks that look after us is natural.

But my thesis is that the sooner we come to terms with facts and start looking to ourselves for answers the more healthy we'll become. Kick away the crutch people!

I actually envy the devout and faithful because where they have certainty, I have angst and yes probably a extra measure of stress.

I can think of nothing more stressful than truly believing that unless I follow some externally and supernaturally imposed dogma, I'm going to hell, or that some deity is reading my mind and watching my actions and will some day hold me account for that sneaky sexy thought.

And I know you will probably think that I can do something social and together with my daughter that does not involve religion and mythology.

I think it would be a good plan, 'cos one day she's going to wake up and think you're wally for beliving all that bells and smells stuff and you'll have nothing in common anymore. Take her fishing ;-)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by 1.61803, posted 06-16-2017 10:15 AM 1.61803 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-16-2017 4:02 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-30-2017 11:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 123 of 182 (812483)
06-16-2017 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by New Cat's Eye
06-16-2017 4:02 PM


NCE writes:

I kicked my crutch, a substance, and when I looked to myself I found God and He helped me even further - and now I'm the healthiest I've ever been in my life.

It sounds like you found another crutch. But I'm just speculating.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-16-2017 4:02 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Phat, posted 06-18-2017 9:39 AM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 131 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-28-2017 3:48 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 128 of 182 (812716)
06-19-2017 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Stile
06-19-2017 9:23 AM


Stile writes:

The same that I agree that bombs that kill many, many people use electronics. And if we removed all electronics, then we remove the problem.

No, you're confusing mechnisms with motives. Religion provides motivation to do harm to others. It's devisive.

But I think your suggested solution is silly

I don't think i've said what my solution is yet :-)

I would certainly agree with bans and restriction on religion such that those who want to use to hurt others cannot easily do so. And if found out, they should be punished.

But I don't agree that all religion should be removed, the same as I don't agree that all electronics should be removed.

I'm not proposing a ban on any religion - that doesn't work, religions need martyrs.

Nope, religions get rid of themselves through improvements in education and improving secular institutions, reducing poverty, inequality, improving health, justice etc etc etc. This 'need' just disappears when exposed to the light. People don't need crutches.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Stile, posted 06-19-2017 9:23 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Stile, posted 06-20-2017 10:11 AM Tangle has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8210
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 130 of 182 (812822)
06-20-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Stile
06-20-2017 10:11 AM


Stile writes:

Certain manipulations of religion do, yes.
Other manipulations do not.

Very few religions have missed out the 'them and us' stage - Christianity included. As I've said, in most of the West, Christianity is largely emasculated and harmless - with the exception of the evangelicals and fundies. But even they are outnumbered and ignored these days - albeit with the extraordinary exception of the USA where they still have a power base. That many nutters in one country is kind of frightening.

I think this blanket statement is wrong.
Some people certainly do.
For some people, the only way they can carry on is by using a religious crutch.

They need educating out of it; it's the 21st century. Beliefs are normative - they're learnt, they don't exist naturally, we have to make them up, then teach them. Stop it!

I see no reason to deprive them of that as long as the religion they use does not provide motivation to do harm to others and is not divisive.

I'm not interested in depriving them of anything - these silly superstitions will be blown away in time by humane secular values, just so long as they're not encouraged by allowing them into education and positions of influence.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Stile, posted 06-20-2017 10:11 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
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