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Author Topic:   What happens after the oil is gone?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


(1)
Message 31 of 79 (616867)
05-24-2011 7:38 PM


Answers from various people to the original question.
Capitalist: What are you talking about? The Earth has an infinite reservoir of oil waiting for us to drill out.
Conservative: How dare you to even ask this question? Oil has proven itself to work for the last 4 hundred years and we should not steer away from it.
Christian conservative: Jesus will return anytime now, so there is no point in finding an alternative, renewable source of fuel.
Liberal commie: We need to stop using oil now! Organic food all the way!

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 32 of 79 (616871)
05-24-2011 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Coragyps
05-24-2011 7:36 PM


Re: Is this true?
My understanding is that hydrogen doesn't have much storage density; there's less chemical energy in a bottle of pressurized hydrogen than the mechanical energy stored as pressure! Metal hydrides are better, apparently, but I don't know much about them. (Not my cup of chemistry.)
For the most part, I think the "buzz" about hydrogen economy is about one thing - you can pump it into a car like gas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Coragyps, posted 05-24-2011 7:36 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 33 of 79 (616873)
05-24-2011 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by crashfrog
05-24-2011 7:58 PM


Re: Is this true?
crashfrog writes:
My understanding is that hydrogen doesn't have much storage density; there's less chemical energy in a bottle of pressurized hydrogen than the mechanical energy stored as pressure! Metal hydrides are better, apparently, but I don't know much about them. (Not my cup of chemistry.)
For the most part, I think the "buzz" about hydrogen economy is about one thing - you can pump it into a car like gas.
I have seen systems where you can make hydrogen in your garage from natural gas and even from water, both are not cost efficient and it would still be better, for now, to use gas.
From an environmental point of view, when you use natural gas to make hydrogen you still have co2 to deal with.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by crashfrog, posted 05-24-2011 7:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 05-24-2011 8:22 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 34 of 79 (616874)
05-24-2011 8:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by fearandloathing
05-24-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Is this true?
Pressurized hydrogen is also dangerous, even more so than, say, pressurized natural gas, if only because it burns with no smoke and no real color to the flame. Lots of research is going into things like metal hydrides for storage, and I think some real progress is being made. I only follow this stuff in Nature, though, so I may be seeing the academic side of the research that might never make it to an automobile.
I don't much care for the idea of 17-year-olds fuelling a car with H2 at 1900 psi while they're texting their friends, though. But hell, they do it with gasoline.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 8:09 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 35 of 79 (616875)
05-24-2011 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Coragyps
05-24-2011 8:22 PM


Re: Is this true?
Fuel cell tech is coming a long way, in the last 6 months or so I was reading about fuel cells that operate on natural gas, but you still have co2 as an issue.
I think that we have many fossil fuel options left, for now, but green house gases is a concern that cant be ignored.
The transition from fossil fuels is not going to be an easy thing to do, I feel we need to try and utilize what we have as efficiently as possible, while working to be non-dependent on them.
In the big picture we use fossil fuels for so much more than energy, fertilizer, plastics...ect.
All these things we do with it need to be replaced with alternative, renewable sources. Waste treatment plants will one day be a source of fertilizer, and maybe energy from methane, as our landfills could also be a source or energy/materials. Just a thought.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Coragyps, posted 05-24-2011 8:22 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-24-2011 8:55 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 36 of 79 (616876)
05-24-2011 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by fearandloathing
05-24-2011 8:50 PM


Re: Is this true?
The US, perhaps more than almost any other country, faces one additional problem.
We built our cities and living areas based on cheap gas.
We face a situation where for the last thee quarters of a century we expanded where we live, work, grow food and play around cheap gas.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 8:50 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 9:06 PM jar has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 37 of 79 (616878)
05-24-2011 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
05-24-2011 8:55 PM


Re: Is this true?
jar writes:
The US, perhaps more than almost any other country, faces one additional problem.
We built our cities and living areas based on cheap gas.
We face a situation where for the last thee quarters of a century we expanded where we live, work, grow food and play around cheap gas.
I agree, I live in a city of about 50,000, we have no public transit other than taxi. There is a system for the elderly...ect, but no bus. Public transit is a joke for most Americans This is one of many problems we face in USA..

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 05-24-2011 8:55 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 05-24-2011 9:26 PM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:33 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 79 (616880)
05-24-2011 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by fearandloathing
05-24-2011 9:06 PM


the problem
The problem we will face is that we built our infrastructure around personal cars and cheap gas, and infrastructure cannot be replaced in even decades.
Now we need to decide if we want to change.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 9:06 PM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 39 of 79 (616881)
05-24-2011 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by fearandloathing
05-24-2011 9:06 PM


Re: Is this true?
fearandloathing writes:
... I live in a city of about 50,000, we have no public transit other than taxi. There is a system for the elderly...ect, but no bus. Public transit is a joke for most Americans This is one of many problems we face in USA..
Bah!
Try dragging a three-horse trailer into the back woods with public transit.
The silly little libs graduating from Yale and Harvard have no idea what goes on in the real world. Yet they are set to rule us all--for our own good, of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 9:06 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 9:42 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 05-24-2011 9:43 PM Coyote has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 40 of 79 (616882)
05-24-2011 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
05-24-2011 9:33 PM


Re: Is this true?
Coyote writes:
fearandloathing writes:
... I live in a city of about 50,000, we have no public transit other than taxi. There is a system for the elderly...ect, but no bus. Public transit is a joke for most Americans This is one of many problems we face in USA..
Bah!
Try dragging a three-horse trailer into the back woods with public transit.
The silly little libs graduating from Yale and Harvard have no idea what goes on in the real world. Yet they are set to rule us all--for our own good, of course.
I am not sure what you mean?? Please clarify, dont forget I am often slow.

"I hate to advocate the use of drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they always worked for me." - Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:33 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 05-24-2011 9:45 PM fearandloathing has not replied
 Message 43 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:51 PM fearandloathing has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 41 of 79 (616883)
05-24-2011 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
05-24-2011 9:33 PM


Re: Is this true?
Try dragging a three-horse trailer into the back woods with public transit.
Nobody lives in the "back woods", Coyote. Despite the lionization of "rural America", less than 20% of Americans have actually chosen to live there, what with the drug problems, rampant unemployment, terrible provision of public services, awful schools, and unavailability of culture.
The silly little libs graduating from Yale and Harvard have no idea what goes on in the real world.
The "real world" is in the cities, Coyote, and it's you "rural Americans" who don't know anything about them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:33 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:58 PM crashfrog has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 79 (616884)
05-24-2011 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by fearandloathing
05-24-2011 9:42 PM


Re: Is this true?
This is the change I was discussing.
For example, he is talking about hauling a three horse trailer into the wilderness.
The answer is to have vehicles capable of that available on a per use charge basis.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 9:42 PM fearandloathing has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 10:03 PM jar has replied
 Message 54 by frako, posted 05-24-2011 10:15 PM jar has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 43 of 79 (616885)
05-24-2011 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by fearandloathing
05-24-2011 9:42 PM


Re: Is this true?
fearandloathing writes:
I am not sure what you mean?? Please clarify, dont forget I am often slow.
What I am saying is that mass transit is not the solution to all problems, although libs in the northeast seem to think it is. It's for our own good, you know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 9:42 PM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Theodoric, posted 05-24-2011 9:58 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 46 by fearandloathing, posted 05-24-2011 10:03 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 44 of 79 (616886)
05-24-2011 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by crashfrog
05-24-2011 9:43 PM


Re: Is this true?
crashfrog writes:
Try dragging a three-horse trailer into the back woods with public transit.
Nobody lives in the "back woods", Coyote. Despite the lionization of "rural America", less than 20% of Americans have actually chosen to live there, what with the drug problems, rampant unemployment, terrible provision of public services, awful schools, and unavailability of culture.
What you are describing is the cities.
And you are wrong, there are a lot of people who find the "back woods" superior to cities in many respects. But that's OK. You stay in the city and I'll stay in the back woods. Deal?
The silly little libs graduating from Yale and Harvard have no idea what goes on in the real world.
The "real world" is in the cities, Coyote, and it's you "rural Americans" who don't know anything about them.
Nobody in their right mind would live in a city. I don't even like going into one!
You know of course that all large cities are about two days away from real trouble if the supply lines are cut for any reason at all? And like New Orleans, most folks would just sit there and wait for the gubmnt to come save them. In the case of a real disaster that's a pretty vain hope.
But that's OK. You stay in your city and leave the rest of us alone and we'll all get along just fine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by crashfrog, posted 05-24-2011 9:43 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 05-24-2011 10:23 PM Coyote has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 45 of 79 (616887)
05-24-2011 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Coyote
05-24-2011 9:51 PM


It isn't all or nothing
What I am saying is that mass transit is not the solution to all problems, although libs in the northeast seem to think it is.
I do not see where anyone is saying it is the answer to all problems. It is part of the solution. No one here, or anywhere I am aware of, has proposed that we force everyone to use mass transit. The idea is to make more available. It is a classic conservative tactic to make it seem as if it is all or nothing. Easy way to appeal to emotions isn't it. Lets just eliminate all rational thought I guess.
No matter what you want to think not all libs are in the northeast. There are a lot of us pro-union, pro-environment libs in the woods of the upper midwest.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2011 9:51 PM Coyote has not replied

  
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