History's Greatest Holocaust Via Atheistic Ideology

lol... trust me, there are anti-theists, I have met them on other boards ;;;;;;CoughJedinetCough;;;;;;;;;
I'm glad we are all above that here.Sorry you guys have run into converting Bible thumpers... unfortunately, that gives all of us (theists) such a bad name. I've always felt that others are much more open to my beliefs when I present them in a loving and kind way... being an a$$ only makes one's faith look less attractive. Plus... to be honest, except for that moment that Christ got angry that the moneychangers were desecrating the temple (and making $$ off of his Dad's name), Christ converted through kind words and deeds... not by telling people they were idiots, fools, or jerks (Sanhedrin and Pharisees excluded, of course.)True, Crashing... if an individual knows they are writing the chi, it would be difficult to consider it a slur... but just as many "religious" individuals don't know its origin, many anti-Christians don't know it isn't a slur.
Like I said, that's why I asked if it was intended to b a slur... it wasn't a rhetorical question.

Well, I try not to let it make me prejudge Christians I meet in real life. Unfortunately, Christians on this board are usually here because they want to convert, so it's hard not to prejudge them a little.Here's my litmus test: Gay Marriage amendment, yea or nay? (Don't answer here, of course, but over in the Gay Marriage amendment thread.) That'll pretty much determine whether or not you're the kind of Christian I can co-exist with, or one that I'm probably going to wind up butting heads with.

I just want to make sure you understand that I think you seem like a nice guy, so I am not trying to make personal digs on you, or your religion. I just believe I see a flaw in an argument (or two) you have made and am addressing those flaws.

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The OT is the beginning of understanding my God, not the end... that's why I'm not Jewish.

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But this is my very point. For some the OT is the end of understanding (the Jews), and for some Xians (usually evangelicals) the OT carries a lot of weight, even against the words of Jesus.So despite having the same grounding in golden rules, there come exceptions that not only allow for violence but actually encourage it. From what you are explaining you are not one of these people, and I can accept that. But for the discussion of this thread you kind of have to admit, given the above facts, that for some theists there will be reasons to kill.

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My feeling is, that the ideals that are most consistent are those that matter most.

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And the rub for me is that since these consistent ideals are shared by even atheists, perhaps they come from the source of our shared human experience (further evidenced by those having shared our human experience NOT coming away with those values).But I get that this will not be wholly convincing for you... you have faith in a God. If there is a God then by default these values must have come from him.I just want to point out the flipside is valid. The difference is you have faith an I do not. No problem.

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Please tell me where you got that impression.

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You said that the golden rules came from a Creator. I realize that is not the same thing as prosyletizing, but it does state that I am wrong in believing where they came from.If its just about faith, and since the subject wasn't really on the table, it came off a little stronger perhaps than you had intended. Or I took it as a stronger statement than you had intended.If we agree that the origin of values can be seen as coming from different sources, including the human condition (sans religion), and it is up to faith to make a distinction, then there's no problem.

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there was no final check or fear of afterlife retribution.

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You are correct, and I apologize for not being accurate in restating your position. That said, I still have an issue of why someone should be concerned whether there is a FINAL check or a fear of afterlife retribution, with all the checks one gets in this life.And this still leaves open that for all the checks theism imposes, it also gives incentives and instruction for some with absolutely NO chance for retribution. Even if this comes from mainly mistaken theistic doctrine, it does not relieve theism in general of that problem. Belief in something beyond us is kind of a doubleedged sword. so it has to be used carefully.Atheism has no doctrine so it is not double-edged... heheheh, unless it turns out to be wrong and there is an afterlife! Dang my agnostic streak.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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However, if one is to make the claim that "religion" has caused bloodshed, they are ignoring the fact that the perpetrators were not exercising the true beliefs of love and tolerance that are found at the heart of ALL religions.

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One can always explain away any atrocity by a Christian by saying they weren't/aren't "real" Christians.If you ask them, I am sure that most would say that they are, indeed, "true Christians" and were carrying out God's will.It's an unbeatable system and simply avoids having to face the fact that Christians have never been any more moral than any other group.

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From my own experience, I know that if I had been married in my church (which entails quite extensive preparation classes etc...) I would probably never have been married in the first place and/or never gotten a divorce.

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Even though I was already an Agnostic along with my then-fiance, I got married in a Catholic ceremony (it was just easier than the huge brouhaha it would have caused with my family to not do that).As a result, we had to attend a weekend marriage retreat thing where we listened to lectures and discussed issues such as having children, money, working, communication, etc.The thing is, I left that retreat thinking, "What kind of crazy person gets engaged without ever talking to their fiance about having children??"In short, the questions were incredibly elementary and it was a pretty big waste of time.

Question to the athiest: Why is it that the largest population of athiests come from "Chiristian-rooted" countries? Is it because you are accustomed to the benefits of living in a community where morals are already in place? I guess I just don't know of any large populations of athiests where millions of children are born with AIDS (Africa), where the people are killed by their own government because of a radical dictator (to me, who cares what his beliefs are - it just shows that if anyone is in power and left without any morals to follow he will probably kill people for sport - hmmmm-proof that we are all inherently sinful and without rules to follow would surely kill anyone who got in our way), or a country like India where poverty is horendous.In fact, the largest populations of athiests are usually in countries where they already get the benefits of a history of a strong religious system - example: The United States of America and Europe.ANy answers here?

I think there is a chance that you are confusing correlation with cause.The Christian heritage maybe (but I don't think you know) correlated with a larger percentage of atheists. However, it happens (for reasons not defined here) that the Christian religion was the one of Europe. Europe is where a lot of the modern democracies are or whose culture originated from. These democracies have a higer level of education than much of the rest of the world.There is a documented increase in atheism with increased levels of education. It could be that it is the education that is correlated with atheism.I'm sure others will point out that history is littered with Christian despots killing innocents. In fact, it is a reduction in the power of churchs in our societies that can be correlated (but as noted that doesn't prove cause) with increased freedoms, decreased despotism, etc.

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Question to the athiest:

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Wow, this is so cool that I have to respond to it. What made you decide that I am THE atheist? I'm sure some may debate this classification, especially those that already know I am of agnostic persuasion. But thanks anyway.

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Why is it that the largest population of athiests come from "Chiristian-rooted" countries?

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You will have to have some evidence for this. I am pretty sure China and Russia have quite a few atheists and China at least is not Xian rooted.

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Is it because you are accustomed to the benefits of living in a community where morals are already in place?

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Would this be the same benefits faced by atheists and even theists during the middle ages before Xianity was removed from government? I'll note that atheism seems to spread where secular governments guarantee the right of everyone to practice whatever religion (or lack of religion) they choose.And the same question you pose could have been posed to the early Xians. Were they able to exist because of the benefits of living in communities where morals had been put in place by pagans? Without any question, it was pagans that formed the first cities, laws, democracies, philosophies, and libraries.

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I guess I just don't know of any large populations of athiests where millions of children are born with AIDS (Africa), where the people are killed by their own government because of a radical dictator... or a country like India where poverty is horendous.

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That sounds like the best advertisement atheism ever had. Wherever atheism goes there is no affliction and persecution!Or are you trying to say that anywhere Xianity is today there are none of the above? Have you ever heard of South and Central America? Very Xian, desperate poverty, dictators, AIDs (though not as bad as Africa which was its center of origin).Thus the reality seems to indicate that it is atheism which must be the cause of US and Europe's lack of problems such as these.... Ooooo yeah, we could even look back and see that before atheism was allowed and Xianity was in full control of US and Europe's moral terrain, there were massive plagues and dictators.Thanks runner, I'll take the baton from here, unless you think you can go a bit further for my cause?

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In fact, the largest populations of athiests are usually in countries where they already get the benefits of a history of a strong religious system - example: The United States of America and Europe.

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Or is it from the freedom of religion that our secular governments gave us (so that there could be atheists), plus the immense resources we had at our disposal (to make us powerful), plus the education to overcome superstition which is common in poorer areas of the world?I suggest you take a look at Ned's post regarding correlation versus causation. Because if he isn't right, your own argument for causation is actually going to benefit atheists and NOT Xians.

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ANy answers here?

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No, there were no answers in your post. It was a series of questions which implied answers, without providing evidence greater than limited personal anecdote absent serious introspection.Any Questions?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Do you have the data to back up that claim, if so could
you provide it or link to it? I don't know of a community that doesn't already have morals
in place, perhaps you do. Not sure what you are saying here. If you are suggesting that
Africa contains a large population of athiests, and that
THAT is why HIV infection rates are so high then I feel I must
object.First, large swathes of the African populations have been
forcefully converted to christianity ... and even those that
haven't have their own religious beliefs (including god(s)).
So claiming them as athiests is incorrect.Second, don't you think that high HIV rates might be more
related to being less informed, and not having access to
approriate protections. I doubt that Africans are any more
promiscuous than, say, New Yorkers, Londoners, or the people
of Colorado Springs. Plenty of people raised in the christian faith, or in communities
where those morals prevail are capable of killing without
remorse. Many self-proclaimed believers have conducted mass
slaughter in the name of their god -- I do not see how that
correlates with atheism. Again, not sure what you are saying, since the people of India
are not atheist. India has a much longer history of strong religious systems than
Europe and European-descended Americans, as do Native Americans,
South American rain-forest peoples, African tribal peoples
(where they have not been converted to christianity).I think Ned is more on track -- the more educated one is, the
more likely one is to question the priests -- why do you
think so many religions took control of education for so long?

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Not sure what you are saying here. If you are suggesting that Africa contains a large population of athiests, and that THAT is why HIV infection rates are so high then I feel I must object.

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You missed his point. He is saying that AIDs and Dictators and Poverty are marks of places without a firm social base, which Xianity does away with. And he has seen no atheists where these are, thus...1) Where X occurs, there is Atheism
2) Where Bad occurs, there is no Atheism
therefore
3) X must be a prerequisite for Atheism to exist.Of course this has the hidden premises:1b) Where X occurs, there is no Bad
and
2b) Where there is no Atheism seen now, there can be no Atheism ever.I shot 1b all to hell in my post, and then pointed out that given this form of logic (and his point shot to hell) all we are left with is that wherever atheism is, there is no bad and therefore there can be no bad wherever atheism is.Heheheh, he can say that all he wants, even though I don't think it's true. All of his points are bogus. And I also mentioned that even if true, the same could be said of Xianity's relationship to Pagans in the early days. So maybe this is just the evolution of thought? Many gods and laws, one god and fewer systems of law, atheism and no set system of laws... "objective" moral laws I mean.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I thought what he was saying is that "there's no atheists in foxholes," and that atheists owe a debt to the Christians that actually impose the moral order necessary for the luxury of atheism.On the other hand, I'd say that there's plenty of atheists in foxholes, and plenty of atheists in Africa. It's just that neither of these groups of atheists gets to hang out on the internet, so you never meet them.

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I thought what he was saying is that "there's no atheists in foxholes," and that atheists owe a debt to the Christians that actually impose the moral order necessary for the luxury of atheism

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I thought he was making one long argument, instead of two separate ones.Perhaps Runner can straighten out what he meant on his next lap... unless he's already winded.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I amuse myself by reading the post on this most excellent website. I was getting tired of chat rooms full of dogmatic fanatics ranting and trying to "one up the other'. Oh wait.. Its going on again Sheeesh. I feel at times that an atheist has less at stake than a Christian when it comes to there personal beliefs systems. Think about it, would it not suck to know your gunna burn in hell if you dont get the right information and practice the right religion. Wheww what a burden. I often explain to some of my Christian friends that it is by sheer random luck that they were raised in a predomnantly Christian country because if they were raised in say like Bangladesh and raised Hindu, they would be toasting marshmellows in hell with satan. According to their own dogma. In short their "Salvation depends on luck to some degree. So anytime a highly religious person begins to get there hackles up I have to remind myself , he must feel himself on shakey ground.
And I being respectful of peoples beliefs I back off and apologize if I had been offensive..

COUGH!! COUGH!!
Say what, Holmes? Do we go back to page one and beginagin? COUGH!! COUGH!!

According to the Bible, all our forbears had Jehovah truth at one time in history, going back to Noah's three sons. That some have no light down the descendent road is because the folks didn't program truth into the kids. They let it slide as is the case today in Biblical Christian circles and cultures. The kids go off to the mind mill assembly lines and come out brainwashed into secularism.