Creationism, Evolution and the Public Schools

Arachnid,Some comments:
Item #1...then was divided (henceforth never a nation again until after WWII when it was artificially made one), conquered by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks under Alexander, and the Romans. All before your cited crusade.Item #2...Where did you get this idea?Item #3...Only under Saul, David and Solomon (if you accept the OT as reliable history of the era) was the area under united Jewish control as a nation, and even then "control" is hardly the correct word to use; they were constantly fighting to keep order and "control."Item #5...What about Tel Aviv, 1948?Item #7...Jerusalem was a city (by the name of Salem) long before David took control of the Jebusite city. Melchizedek is mentioned in Gen. 14.18 as its king; also see Psalms 76.2.Item #9...When fleeing a war zone, it is common (and advised) to leave before seeing the enemy. By then it's too late.Item #12...What about Armenians, Montagnards, American Indians, and the Jews before the re-establishment of the Jewish State? To not be absorbed in 50 years is not suprising at all.As for refuting the facts...which facts were you refering to?-Shiloh

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That's the points refuted or dismissed as irrelevancies. Now I'm not in favour of the destruction of Israel, or the extermination of Jews as I'm sure you're about to present me as. I'm against the sanctioning of massacres of 1500+ innocents which happened in Sabra and Chatila (and for which Ariel Sharon was found culpable by an Isrraeli commission) and the continued mass killings and heavy handed tactics used against Palestinian civilians which garner worldwide condemnation.

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I would classify that as natural selection. The strong survive and the weak are eradicated. Watching animals kill each other is easier on the stomach, I guess.

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The best solution IMO is a two state solution, with the Palestinains being granted a contiguous area of land and Israel promised its security. All this takes is the political will (most people internationally would support this idea).

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I was enjoying your eloquent post until here. A two state solution is naive. Quite a few muslims have vowed to destroy Israel and won't stop until they achieve their goal. Muslim attacks against Israel will result in occupied land, regardless of deisgnation of a Palestine state. The cycle continues.

It was my understanding that Israel did not kick out the occupants of the land that they were given, rather that they encouraged them to stay and share the land. I believe it was the surrounding Arab nations that sugested that original residents should leave, vowing that Israel would soon be destroyed and that they could then return to the land.Why. if Israel is trying so hard to expand John, do they return the land that they take when they slaughter attacking enemies and gain ground?------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

Me: You: Would you classify the Holocaust as natural selection as well?You: Exactly, which is why the Palestinians would have to promise Israel security in exchange for land. The rogue extremist elements would have to be weeded out.The irony is of course that the Israeli tactics and rhetoric grows closer to that used by the Nazis every day.PE

Great post, John. I've often encountered this erroneous argument from people trying to establish an Israeli "prior claim" to the area we call Palestine.Just a few comments/additions (for those who are interested in this fascinating region):

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1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

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This is incorrect. A group of Hebrew-speaking tribes left Mesopotamia between 1400 bce and settled in Canaan. A confederation of these tribes, known as the Israelites, conquered portions of Canaan from the Egyptians around 1200 bce, an area that is probably part of modern Syria. They were defeated by the Phoenician Sea Peoples who had settled in Philistia in battle around 1050 bce. However, it took another 300 years before they were able to conquer what is now known as Palestine. The Hebrew-speakers established control over most of the region after David conquered Jerusalem (formerly Jebus) in 975 bce. The kingdom was divided into Israel (under Saul) and Judah or Judea (under David). The northern Kingdom of Israel disappeared in the Assyrian conquest around 722 bce. The southern Kingdom of Judah hung around in a narrow strip from the edge of the Negev to just inside modern Syria for another 150 years or so, surrounded by desert on the east and in constant warfare with Philistia on the west until the Babylonian conquest of 585, when it too disappeared. IOW, Israel existed for about 250 years, and even the Hebrew control of the region in toto only lasted for around 400 years. If we want to play prior claim, better give it back to the Canaanites.

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4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.

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This is pretty funny. Arab, hunh? What do you think David’s Israelites were? A semitic tribe that originated in Arabia. The Israelites were as much Arab as the Babylonians, Akkadians, Assyrians, etc. If you’re referring to Islamic Arabs, then you’re pretty close to the mark. However, with the exception of the bits carved out by the Crusaders, the entire region has been dominated by Moslems since 636 (fall of Damascus), 637-38 (fall of Jerusalem) and 642 (fall of Alexandria).

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7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

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No, David conquered Jerusalem, and then established the capital of Judea there (for awhile, anyway). Mohammed never came to Jerusalem because he died in 632. However, the second Caliph Umar Ibn al-Khattab certainly did. Research the Covenant of Omar which guaranteed Christian religious freedom and access to the holy sites, and rescinded the Roman ban on Jews in Jerusalem. Interesting that it was a Moslem conqueror that rescinded the Byzantine Christian ban on Jews in the holy city, isn't it? Also interesting that there is a lot of evidence that Mohammed, as opposed to Jesus, was a true historical figure. Odd, hunh?[This message has been edited by Quetzal, 01-28-2003]

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It was my understanding that Israel did not kick out the occupants of the land that they were given, rather that they encouraged them to stay and share the land.

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This is the myth most people seem to believe. No webpage found at provided URL: http://www/palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story151.html

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Why. if Israel is trying so hard to expand John, do they return the land that they take when they slaughter attacking enemies and gain ground?

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Israel is in a precarious position. Basically, every nation around them is an enemy. They exist because the US and the UN back them. The US, vor example, has armed them with the best weapons we have, including nuclear missiles. If they push things too far, they destroy themselves. I think the tactic is to hassle the Palestinians just enough to chase them off but not enough to get on the bad side of the US and the UN. As for the latter, they can get away with a lot because the US wants an ally in the mid-east. Israel has to play that card.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Erm, do you have a reference for this statement:

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The US, vor example, has armed them with the best weapons we have, including nuclear missiles.

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IIRC, Dimona was a French-designed and provided facility staffed by Israeli scientists. One rumor had it that some South African technicians had also worked there. The Israeli Jericho missile systems are also home-grown, as is the (supposedly) nuclear-capable Kfir fighter/bomber. Remember that Indian and Pakistani scientists were ALSO capable of developing nuclear devices for their respective countries. Just because the Israeli's live in the Middle East and have odious internal policies doesn't mean they're ignorant, especially with the nice leg-up the French gave them.It's okay to beat up on historical revisionists - just don't fall into the same trap.

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Erm, do you have a reference for this statement:

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I am mistaken about the nukes, but not about the US arming Israel. We aren't the only ones doing so, of course. Page not found | Council for Arab-British Understanding------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com[This message has been edited by John, 01-28-2003]

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This is the myth most people seem to believe.

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And you have a new Palestinian gospel to share with us?

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http://www/palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story151.html

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That is completely biased and illegitimate site. You may as well post something from Arabia.com or Arab News - Worldwide Latest Breaking News & Updates where they discuss daily how 'evil' the Israeli 'empire' is and how it must be pushed into the sea.You seem to have a knack for posting such sites to back your claims, John.Granted, you are knowledgeable in the fields of science, but I think you lack knowledge on this issue.

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Israel is in a precarious position.

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Seemingly so, but I disagree. Let's wait and see, shall we? The suicide bombings are occurring less.

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Basically, every nation around them is an enemy.

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Correct. They've attacked Israel before and were defeated. And now, they're under enormous political pressure now to not attack.

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They exist because the US and the UN back them.

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Correct. They wanted to give the scattered and persecuted jews a homeland.

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The US, vor example, has armed them with the best weapons we have, including nuclear missiles

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Yes, because they are our ally and we are upholding our original commitment to them.I'm not so sure about the nuclear missles part. I do know that the United States helped develope and fund them.

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If they push things too far, they destroy themselves.

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Ummm, no.

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I think the tactic is to hassle the Palestinians just enough to chase them off but not enough to get on the bad side of the US and the UN.

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Oh really? Have you studied the IDF's policy on urban tactics? They calculate precision-based operations to seek and destroy hostile militia. Root out the enemy and cripple the terrorist network = less suicide bombings. Who would have thought?This should give you a good reference to start from:http://www.idf.il/english/News/main.htm

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As for the latter, they can get away with a lot because the US wants an ally in the mid-east.

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I'm not even going to presume what allies the United States government wants or doesn't want in the middle east.The U.S. is committed to Israel, and has sworn to protect it. This is why many nations in the region have anti-American sentiment.Does this mean we should stop supporting Israel to "make buddies" with those other nations? I think not. That is illogical and quite dangerous, tactically. We'd be opening ourselves up to treasonous regimes. Ever heard of Islamic Koresh? Many nations in that region are not going to simply "make buddies" with us just because we say we're sorry. That is nonsense. I understand that religious conviction is something hard for you to understand, but the people in this region have a lot of it.

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Israel has to play that card.

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It's a game of poker and mere chance?Perhaps you should read a little more data about the situation:error page------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?

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IIRC, Dimona was a French-designed and provided facility staffed by Israeli scientists. One rumor had it that some South African technicians had also worked there. The Israeli Jericho missile systems are also home-grown, as is the (supposedly) nuclear-capable Kfir fighter/bomber. Remember that Indian and Pakistani scientists were ALSO capable of developing nuclear devices for their respective countries. Just because the Israeli's live in the Middle East and have odious internal policies doesn't mean they're ignorant, especially with the nice leg-up the French gave them.

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Nice information.

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It's okay to beat up on historical revisionists - just don't fall into the same trap.

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It's ok to be a hypocrite sometimes too, right? I'd consider some of your "data" in your post previous to this to be revisionist.(Sarcasm)
So, how do you know what really happened and what didn't? How do you know that Julius Caesar really existed? How do you know when you were born? People could be just making it up. It's all a myth, I tell you.
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What is intelligence without wisdom?[This message has been edited by Satcomm, 01-28-2003]

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And you have a new Palestinian gospel to share with us?

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What kind of response is that? Since when is the truth a 'gospel'?

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That is completely biased and illegitimate site. You may as well post something from Arabia.com or Arab News - Worldwide Latest Breaking News & Updates where they discuss daily how 'evil' the Israeli 'empire' is and how it must be pushed into the sea.

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Kinda like how you cited an ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MILITARY SITE to support your claims. It can't get any more hypocritical than that!!! Thanks for the laugh.Maybe you didn't notice that the article in question was a Washington Reports article. The url given is No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm but it seems to no longer work.You are denying the blatantly obvious. You may as well deny the jewish holocost.

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They've attacked Israel before and were defeated.

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... due to aid from the US.

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Correct. They wanted to give the scattered and persecuted jews a homeland.

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Noble sentiment. I have no qualms with the motivation but with the method. The UN had no right to give that land to anyone, most especially to people who hadn't lived there in centuries for the most part.

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Ummm, no.

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Helluva response there. What do you suppose would happen if the US cut all diplomatic and economic ties to Israel? hmmmm....? Everyone around them would attack. And nuclear weapons or not, they lose.

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Oh really? Have you studied the IDF's policy on urban tactics? They calculate precision-based operations to seek and destroy hostile militia. Root out the enemy and cripple the terrorist network = less suicide bombings. Who would have thought?

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ummmm.... are you sincerely foolish enough to take Israeli public relations material at face value?Oh.... thanks for the link... yet another good laugh!!! The irony is killing me.

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I'm not even going to presume what allies the United States government wants or doesn't want in the middle east.

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Yes, coming to such a conclusion would take a bit of thinking wouldn't it?

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The U.S. is committed to Israel, and has sworn to protect it.

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So we protect it cause we made a promise? The naivety of that is staggering. We've made mountains of promises to many nations. We keep the ones that serve us and break the others. It is a harsh reality.

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This is why many nations in the region have anti-American sentiment.

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Well, you've got something right. But you go on to argue against yourself, claiming that the problem is religious rather than the result of the military conquest of Palestine.

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Does this mean we should stop supporting Israel to "make buddies" with those other nations? I think not. That is illogical and quite dangerous, tactically.

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Don't kid yourself. The US could wipe out the whole mid-east, just as we did Hitler's Germany in WW2 should the nation's population ever be convinced that it is the thing to do. The need for Israel is not military, it is political. And I'll wager that any politician who suggests that we stop supporting Israel will be crucified by the fundamentalists who consider Israel a God-ordained nation.

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We'd be opening ourselves up to treasonous regimes.

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No? Really? Kinda like now, eh? Israel in no way protects us from treachorous regimes. It, as you say, is the REASON for much of the hatred aimed at the US.

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Ever heard of Islamic Koresh?

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No. And I don't have time to wade through all of the references to David Koresh. Care to give me a hint?

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Many nations in that region are not going to simply "make buddies" with us just because we say we're sorry.

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I never said they would just "make friends." But removing the thorn is bound to help the wound heal.

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I understand that religious conviction is something hard for you to understand, but the people in this region have a lot of it.

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Yes, I believe you and it isn't hard to find Islamic religious leaders call for an end to the hatred and strife. You are focusing on a subset of Islam, not on the whole.

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It's a game of poker and mere chance?

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Metaphor is beyond your grasp as well? Sad....------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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What kind of response is that? Since when is the truth a 'gospel'?

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Metaphor and sarcasm indicating that your first statement was rediculous. You are assuming your position is the truth when there is a lot of historical evidence to refute it.As for the word 'gospel', it simply means "good news". And is commonly referred in the context of biblical gospel. Analogy? Metaphor? Ring a bell?

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Kinda like how you cited an ISRAELI GOVERNMENT MILITARY SITE to support your claims. It can't get any more hypocritical than that!!! Thanks for the laugh.

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Lets recap on this:Me: Citing official government sites recognized internationally and formally.You: Citing some unknown site that contains biased information from a specific individual or group with a specific agenda.Let our audience be the judge.

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Maybe you didn't notice that the article in question was a Washington Reports article. The url given is http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm but it seems to no longer work.

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Yes, we must be cautious of many *.org webpages, shouldn't we.So, this is a biased article taken from a ultra biased organization. And this makes everything ok?I look at http://www.washington-report.org and I see everything I would see on a Saudi Arabian news site. I.E: "Dollars sent to Israel...", "Bring Islam into the library", "The Zionists...", "For Allah...", etc. The exception is that the people maintaining this site are probably Muslim-Americans.I'm sure Meilleur site de rencontre srieux : comparatif et classement 2020 is a nifty site too. Do you cite from there often?

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You are denying the blatantly obvious.

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Nope, I'm denying the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel rhetoric that Islamic and liberal organizations keep spouting.I enjoy taking the historical account and using it to refute the "history changing" propaganda.

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You may as well deny the jewish holocost.

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How is this relevant?We're talking about the state of Israel, it's history, and the current situation over there. And I'm pro-Israel.I'm debating for history, not against it.Also, which "jewish holocaust" would you be referring to? There have been several throughout history.

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ME: They've attacked Israel before and were defeated.

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YOU: ... due to aid from the US.

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The economic and military aid from the US helped Israel defeat their enemies, however wars are not simply won by money and technology. Israel has demonstrated several times that they are autonomous when it comes to military strategy and force.

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The UN had no right to give that land to anyone, most especially to people who hadn't lived there in centuries for the most part.

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I disagree with this right here.The jews had every right to be there based on both history and modern law.History:The name "Palestine" is derived from the word "Palaestina" meaning "land of the Phillistines".Source: HISTORY | Watch Full Episodes of Your Favorite ShowsEmperor Hadrian of Rome renamed the land of Judea to Palaestina in A.D. 135 after putting down the Bar Kochba revolt. He renamed it to spite the jewish people, because he knew that the extinct Phillistines were once an arch rival of Israel.At the same time, the governor of Judaea (Roman rule) by the name of Rufus confiscated all jewish lands in the region, and prohibited any jew from ever stepping foot on that land again.During this period, the jews were scattered throughout the world due to wave after wave of persecution.The jews had the land first, and the origin of it's new identity was Rome.Modern Law:During the late 19th century, waves of Zionism increased drastically under relaxed policies of the Ottoman Empire. Many jews were legally purchasing lands to settle there and rebuild Israel. This intensified when "Palestine" was mandated over to the British in 1920.So, not only were they there first, but they also bought much of their own land back.

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Helluva response there.

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Helluva retort there. I notice you use the same tactic in many of your posts.

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What do you suppose would happen if the US cut all diplomatic and economic ties to Israel? hmmmm....? Everyone around them would attack. And nuclear weapons or not, they lose.

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How do you know that? You haven't even studied their defenses. Like I said, the nations around them have lost before.

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ummmm.... are you sincerely foolish enough to take Israeli public relations material at face value?

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I take much of the unclassified U.S. defense data at face value, and Israeli intelligence is more sophisticated than our own.What does Israeli "public relations material" have to do with the Israeli defense force? One is military, the other is political.I supposed you discount our military analysis as "public relations material" too?I'm gonna recommend a *.org site:Federation Of American Scientists – Science for a safer, more informed world.Declassified data is declassified data. And it's widely available.

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Oh.... thanks for the link... yet another good laugh!!! The irony is killing me.

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And I see you have no link for your rebuke. Glad I'm here to humor you, because you humor everyone else.

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ME: I'm not even going to presume what allies the United States government wants or doesn't want in the middle east.

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YOU: Yes, coming to such a conclusion would take a bit of thinking wouldn't it?

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Hahaha, no. Coming to a conclusion about that would be basking in ignorance.

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So we protect it cause we made a promise? The naivety of that is staggering. We've made mountains of promises to many nations. We keep the ones that serve us and break the others. It is a harsh reality.

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And it's a great national strategy.

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Well, you've got something right. But you go on to argue against yourself, claiming that the problem is religious rather than the result of the military conquest of Palestine.

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You go on in that quote to contradict yourself.The problem is religious. It is also spiritual, political, tactical, and practical.When did I claim that the current problem in the middle east was the result of military conquest of Palestine? Oh. I see. Those are your words.

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Don't kid yourself. The US could wipe out the whole mid-east, just as we did Hitler's Germany in WW2 should the nation's population ever be convinced that it is the thing to do.

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There are many that would disagree with you. I don't. But I don't think we're invulnerable.

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The need for Israel is not military, it is political.

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So if we look at this practically: Israel not there anymore = no ally in the region which = bad staging point for military retaliation in the region.

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And I'll wager that any politician who suggests that we stop supporting Israel will be crucified by the fundamentalists who consider Israel a God-ordained nation.

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I agree. However, that wouldn't make the need for Israel political, it would make it spiritual.

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No? Really? Kinda like now, eh? Israel in no way protects us from treachorous regimes. It, as you say, is the REASON for much of the hatred aimed at the US.

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That is reason enough to remain allies with them. And Israel does provide us with intelligence and a safe haven in that area.

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No. And I don't have time to wade through all of the references to David Koresh. Care to give me a hint?

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Sure. The hint for you is ignorance. I also mispelled it. It's Koreish, also known Kuraish or Quraysh, which is used in regards to the term "al-Hudaibiya Treaty" or simply "Hudaibiya" by people like Arafat.The Islamic code of "al-Hudaibiya Treaty" has its origins from the time of Muhammed. Its roots were founded when Muhammed made a 10-year treaty with the tribe of Koreish in Mecca and then sudden broke it 3 years later and took it by storm. The doctrine he wrote based on that explain that treaties with non-Muslims can be established, and then broken when stronger so that Islam can advance. It also teaches that obligations, ethics, and honor must not stand in the way of establishing Islamic dominance in the region, and across the Earth.

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I never said they would just "make friends." But removing the thorn is bound to help the wound heal.

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That analogy is a difficult one to apply in a fundamentally religious area of the world.

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Yes, I believe you and it isn't hard to find Islamic religious leaders call for an end to the hatred and strife. You are focusing on a subset of Islam, not on the whole.

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I'm focusing on fundamental Islam, which controls most of the middle east.

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Metaphor is beyond your grasp as well? Sad....

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Good taste is beyond yours...------------------
What is intelligence without wisdom?

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Metaphor and sarcasm indicating that your first statement was rediculous.

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hmmm.... metaphor and sarcasm, eh? Well, you are bad a both. And you can't spell.

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You are assuming your position is the truth when there is a lot of historical evidence to refute it.

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Yes, like all very reliable data put out by the offending parties.

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Me: Citing official government sites recognized internationally and formally.

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And we know how honest governments are. LOL... the joke gets better.

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You: Citing some unknown site that contains biased information from a specific individual or group with a specific agenda.

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LOL....1) the popularity of the site is irrelevant
2) that the information is biased is only your pronouncement based upon ------
3) Information from a specific individual or group with a specific agenda!!!! ta-ta-da!!!! The ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTRY, man!!! Talk about specific group with a specific agenda. It just gets better. How can you stand yourself? If I were you, I'd never stop giggling.

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Let our audience be the judge.

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'k.

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Yes, we must be cautious of many *.org webpages, shouldn't we.

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Why yes indeed, they may print a story we don't want to hear. God forbid!!!!

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I look at http://www.washington-report.org and I see everything I would see on a Saudi Arabian news site. I.E: "Dollars sent to Israel...", "Bring Islam into the library", "The Zionists...", "For Allah...", etc. The exception is that the people maintaining this site are probably Muslim-Americans.

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None of which makes the site or the reports wrong. It may just be that they are telling the truth. Am I smelling some well-cooked bigotry? You sure can make Muslim-American sound like a slur. Want we should kick 'em all out?It isn't hard to find the information, if you care to look. Is Robert C. Miller an ultra biased Muslim-American too? Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

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I'm sure Meilleur site de rencontre srieux : comparatif et classement 2020 is a nifty site too. Do you cite from there often?

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Nope, but it strikes me that you should spend some time there.

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Nope, I'm denying the pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel rhetoric that Islamic and liberal organizations keep spouting.

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I enjoy taking the historical account and using it to refute the "history changing" propaganda.

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Sad that you are defending a false history.

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How is this relevant?

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Yes. It is the irony that strikes me. I doubt you'd deny the tragedy of Nazi Germany, but you adamantly deny the tragedy surrounding Israel's creation.

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The jews had every right to be there based on both history and modern law.

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History:

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The name "Palestine" is derived from the word "Palaestina" meaning "land of the Phillistines".

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LOL.... so lets give it to the Philistines!

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The jews had the land first, and the origin of it's new identity was Rome.

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That was two thousand years ago! Lets give North America back the various indian nations. We'll give Mexico back to the Mayans-- there are still a number of descendants there. Give back the Philipines. Hell, we'll just uproot everybody and sort the whole world by ancestry!!!!Your argument is absurd.

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So, not only were they there first, but they also bought much of their own land back.

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Yes, but we aren't talking about buying land and moving back are we? I have no problem with that. But we are talking about undeniable military conquest. The jews in Palestine were in no way a majority and took the country by force after the UN declaration in 1948.

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Helluva retort there. I notice you use the same tactic in many of your posts.

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I have a very low tolerance for idiocy.

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How do you know that? You haven't even studied their defenses. Like I said, the nations around them have lost before.

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And you know what I have studied? Don't make yourself look worse by making comments you cannot possible have information to support.Yes, other countries have fought and lost -- against an Israel that has US backing. But the speculation concerns what would happen without US backing so really, your comment is meaningless.

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I take much of the unclassified U.S. defense data at face value

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You are joking?

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What does Israeli "public relations material" have to do with the Israeli defense force? One is military, the other is political.

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What a very strange world you must live in to think that a nations' publicly posted information isn't controlled. Do you think you are really getting Israeli Defense Force material rather than something the Israeli government wants you to see?

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I supposed you discount our military analysis as "public relations material" too?

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Absolutely.

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I'm gonna recommend a *.org site:

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Federation Of American Scientists – Science for a safer, more informed world.

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Interesting, but what is the point? Other than to highlight that governments ain't all that trustworthy? Why else would such a sight be needed to "challenge excessive government secrecy and to promote public oversight"? In a way, it contradicts much of your claims about the reliability of the information you have presented.

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Coming to a conclusion about that would be basking in ignorance.

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hmmm.... considering the options and coming to a conclusion is basking in ignorance?

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So we protect it cause we made a promise? The naivety of that is staggering. We've made mountains of promises to many nations. We keep the ones that serve us and break the others. It is a harsh reality.

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And it's a great national strategy.

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Surely you must see how you've contradicted yourself here? You first claim that we protect Israel cause we promised, then agree that conveniently breaking promises is good strategy. You must also be basking in ignorance because you have just come to a conclusion about US national policy.

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When did I claim that the current problem in the middle east was the result of military conquest of Palestine?

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You didn't. That is the problem. You appear to be blind to this simple fact. Certainly there are religious elements, like the Zionists who seeded this mess back in the 1880s or so. But it is basically the military conquest of land that is the problem or that is my problem with Israel.

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So if we look at this practically: Israel not there anymore = no ally in the region which = bad staging point for military retaliation in the region.

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Its a good point. But I don't think it is critical to have Israel, especially given that it is a major case of problems in the mid-east to start with.Wheren't you just chiding me about claiming the "US wants an ally in the mid-east"? You've pretty much said the same thing here.

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The hint for you is ignorance.

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Aren't you a pleasant chap?

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The Islamic code of "al-Hudaibiya Treaty" has its origins from the time of Muhammed. Its roots were founded when Muhammed made a 10-year treaty with the tribe of Koreish in Mecca and then sudden broke it 3 years later and took it by storm.

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From what I can tell, the Koreish broke the treaty and Muhammed over-reacted to their attack. This isn't quite how you have it portrayed.

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The doctrine he wrote based on that explain that treaties with non-Muslims can be established, and then broken when stronger so that Islam can advance. It also teaches that obligations, ethics, and honor must not stand in the way of establishing Islamic dominance in the region, and across the Earth.

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Where can I read this doctrine?

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That analogy is a difficult one to apply in a fundamentally religious area of the world.

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Removing an irritant doesn't help in a fundamentally religious area of the world? That makes no sense.

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I'm focusing on fundamental Islam, which controls most of the middle east.

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In terms of government, that seems to be the case. But government is built on people. Public sentiment could help change that but right now we give everyone fuel for the flames. I'd like to see the violence stop. I just don't see it happening while Israel exists.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

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It's ok to be a hypocrite sometimes too, right? I'd consider some of your "data" in your post previous to this to be revisionist.

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Really? What part? The origin of the Israelites? The Hebrew conquest of Canaan and parts of Philistia? The timing of the Moslem conquest of Jerusalem? I love to read new sources with different information. If it's just a quibble over details, that's one thing. However, if there are major errors in the info I presented, feel free to provide them - I don't mind being convinced.

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hmmm.... metaphor and sarcasm, eh? Well, you are bad a both. And you can't spell.

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Why don't you just call him a poopoo head. Your 2nd grade wit is not appreciated.

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Yes, like all very reliable data put out by the offending parties.

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Offending to who? You?

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And we know how honest governments are. LOL... the joke gets better.

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Yes, I think we all know the true nature of man. But perhaps I am wrong or my version of history is wrong. Of course we all know how honest Muslim regimes are.

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Why yes indeed, they may print a story we don't want to hear. God forbid!!!!

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Haha. Yes. Or even write a story no one wants to read. From your esteemed "non-biased" Robin Miller, a progressive freelance writer site:A Proposal for Regime Change in the United States
Sent to about 15 progressive websites. Most didn't put it on their sites.An Open Letter to the American People on War with Iraq
Distributed to 260 newspapers on September 14. None published it.Ariel Sharon's Vision: "Maximal Killing"
Distributed to 260 newspapers on July 10. Not published by any.Bush's Mideast Blunder
Distributed to 260 newspapers on June 26. Not published by any.The Media's Middle East Rules of Engagement
Distributed to 260 newspapers on June 6. Not published by any.Cataloging (Some of) Israel's War Crimes
Distributed to 260 newspapers on April 12. Not published by any.Israel's War against the Palestinians Is the Real OutrageDistributed to 260 newspapers on April 4. Published by:
Antelope Valley Press (Palmdale, CA; April 8) (link not available)
Quad City Times (Davenport, Iowa; April 7) (link not available)
Rockford Register Star (Rockford, Ill.; April 7) (link not available)Thoughts on Nuremberg and Baghdad
Distributed to 260 newspapers on March 17. Not published by any, to my knowledge.Washington's Own Love Affair with Terror
Distributed to 260 newspapers on March 1. Published by one.Wow, an impressive record. And you just gobble this crap up?

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None of which makes the site or the reports wrong. It may just be that they are telling the truth. Am I smelling some well-cooked bigotry? You sure can make Muslim-American sound like a slur. Want we should kick 'em all out?

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It isn't hard to find the information, if you care to look. Is Robert C. Miller an ultra biased Muslim-American too?

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Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict

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Actually, it's Robin not Robert. I guess it is a stalemate for spelling between the two of you. You are aware she is a woman, right? I hope that doesn't change your views. It's baffling why you chose that site to defend your alleged unbiased rhetoric. Clinton's memoirs are less liberal than that site.

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Am I smelling some well-cooked bigotry? You sure can make Muslim-American sound like a slur. Want we should kick 'em all out?

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Actually, I think a good ole fashion witch hunt is in order. Muslims have identified myself and my country as an enemy, however, my country has refused to identify them as enemies. Wouldn't be PC to do that. We are in America and I have to put up with them and their views. I still don't trust them.

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Sad that you are defending a false history.

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historychannel.com is false. I'll take your statement at face value. Where can I find the "true" history books and/or references and become enlightened? Checking... Darn. http://www.johnswackyhistory.org isn't registered.

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Yes. It is the irony that strikes me. I doubt you'd deny the tragedy of Nazi Germany, but you adamantly deny the tragedy surrounding Israel's creation.

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I bet you get irony about as often as you talk to women.

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That was two thousand years ago! Lets give North America back the various indian nations. We'll give Mexico back to the Mayans-- there are still a number of descendants there.

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Actually, the indians still live here in America. The enterprising Indians are making quite a bit of money off of that land also.There are still Mayans around? I thought they had all been integrated into the big cesspool of mexican culture.

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The jews in Palestine were in no way a majority and took the country by force after the UN declaration in 1948.

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What a grand army the "jews" had back then to take countries by force. It's a shame their army didn't defend itself against Germany. Btw, your statement about "jews" shows your bigotry.

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I have a very low tolerance for idiocy.

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You must sleep alot to avoid yourself.

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Surely you must see how you've contradicted yourself here? You first claim that we protect Israel cause we promised, then agree that conveniently breaking promises is good strategy. You must also be basking in ignorance because you have just come to a conclusion about US national policy.

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We support any democratic nation to a point. We support Israel more than most because it is strategically sound. World politics is high school. Our government should always pick being sneaky and underhanded if it benefits the US. It really doesn't matter who's feelings we hurt or if it is ethical. It is a game of survival.

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Aren't you a pleasant chap?

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Aren't you a simple chap?

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In terms of government, that seems to be the case. But government is built on people. Public sentiment could help change that but right now we give everyone fuel for the flames. I'd like to see the violence stop. I just don't see it happening while Israel exists.

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Violence will always exist as long as man exists. Government or not. You just happen to be on the liberal anti-israel bandwagon. I will agree with you government is flawed. So is democracy. As long as the stupid outnumber the intelligent, this will always be the case.You make schraf look reasonable. I bet you consider yourself an activist too. How pathetic.