I am still not completely sure, but over the last year I have gradually been moving towards the viewpoint you have on salavtion despite my years of instruction that salvation is irrevocable.

Context: New Testament.The NEW testament is the gospel.gospel: good news.good news: God will now accept FAITH in place of the impossible works of the law/righteous standard as the ONLY way to relate to Him and His Son.Notice in this context that Jesus equates "wonderful works" to be the "work of iniquity".These people go to hell.Fundementalists really don't believe that adherence to law has nothing to do with maintaining standing with God."but we cannot sin"Who said we can ?The point God wants to get across is that the terror of sin and the standard which convicts us of sin (law) is intended to drive us to the gospel (already defined) to be the single method of relationship with God.When the gospel/way of faith is practiced with all of ones energy THEN God promises to miraculously deliver us from the power of sin.

So God says Fundamentalists are fine as long as they do good works.

End of Story

edited to fix subtitle.This message has been edited by jar, 08-04-2004 04:44 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's because he is talking about workers of iniquity - who "promote" themselves as followers of Christ etc.It doesn't mean that good works are "iniquity", it means that those who work iniquity and try to exalt themselves with the efforts they did do (voiced as good works) - are not justified. In this sense, no evil person can "trick Christ" by exalting a "good work", and not mentioning the iniquity. I agree, except probably for the "one's energy" - as no man can "go it alone" and succeed in righteoussness, but rather if he has the fruit of the spirit, he is delivered. I say this with painful experience - promising to God that I would "sin no more" in regard to a sin, and then he shown me that "not by I anything", only by Christ. And I sinned, but my next prayer was "help me" --> THEN I succeeded. Nevertheless, backsliding occurs when left to occur.But why do you pinpoint "fundamentalists"? Surely or I have no right to judge a particular group of people? Are you considering the seperation of the sheep from the goats? - That Jar mentioned?

it's really not too hard to be a Christian.You need to subscribe to the basic creedal tenets and you need to try to follow two simple rules.You need to love GOD and you need to love others as you love yourself.That's pretty much it.You can be a literalist, though that is, IMHO, bad theology, or Fundamentalist, or most any other form you want.GOD does not ask much of us. He asks us to love him. And he asks us to try to be good. That's all.Really simple.It's folk like Gene Scott and the other bigots and other like him that profane doctrine, that profess way too much, that need to worry.Love GOD, love your fellow man, love yourself.That's it. That's all that is required.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

All evangelical christianity agrees "works don't save"Reformation message: "Faith Alone"Why would God repeat the Old Testament in the New ?He didn't.The blue box passage is the Great White Throne Judgement Seat of Christ."white" is the color of righteousness - perfect righteousness of Christ.This is the STANDARD by which every person who appears here will be judged by: The perfection of Christ's perfect righteousness.The passage SAYS these people will be judged "according to their works".The Bible is clear: Works don't save.Two verses later: IF you appear at the Great White Throne YOUR works will fall short of the perfect righteousness of Christ and the 15th verse is your lot.Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.Only gospel faith saves.

double post - content deletedThis message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-04-2004 07:01 PM

double post - content deletedThis message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-04-2004 07:00 PM

Dear Hangdawg13;I recommend that you continue in your study of the Bible and learn what it teaches for yourself.(Acts 17:10-12) "they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so. Therefore many of them became believers,"One needs to know the scriptures if one is not to be mislead by non-biblical teachings.(Matthew 15:9) "It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.'"On whether or not salvation is irrevocable, think of Judas, chosen to be one of the 12 apostles. He was personally picked by Jesus Christ after Christ had spent a night in prayer, he saw many of the miracles Jesus did and was a close associate of Jesus. But was his salvation or choosing irrevocable? Notice what Jesus said about Judas.(Matthew 26:24) "woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him if that man had not been born."So if Judas would have been better off never have been born, he certainly has no salvation or hope. But you need to find these things for yourself, you need to study the Bible with someone who knows the scriptures. I learned what I know from Jehovah's Witnesses, we offer free home Bible studies without any obligation to any one who is interested in learning about the Bible. I suggest that you ask the next Witness who calls at your door for a Bible study, or just look up Kingdom Hall or Jehovah's Witnesses in your local phone book and call and ask. Through a systematic study of the Bible your knowledge could be increased by a factor of 10x or 100x in as little as a year.(John 17:3) "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

sorry double post - content deletedThis message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 08-04-2004 06:59 PM

I argue scripture which evidently cut you to the heart and you respond with rabid evangelical hatred.Seems like your politically correct social nonsense of supposedly hating nobody has exceptions.My Bible arguments invokes you to stray off topic and call Dr. Scott a bigot - you are boiling and ranting and seeking to hurt.They called Jesus a "winebibber and a glutton" seems like Dr. Scott is in good company.Your slander of we evangelicals proves we are right.

WILLOWTREE,it's really pretty simple.Love God.Love others as yourself.God loves fundamentalists.I don't hate Gene Scott. Afterall, if it wasn't for folk like "Beam the money up" Scotty his buds Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker and such, who would we have to laugh at?You have to admit that he is one hysterical parody of an ethical person. SNL couldn't do better.This message has been edited by jar, 08-04-2004 07:28 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

"We Evangelicals"? Why all the categories anyway?Are you of an elite bunch of super-righteouss humans? Are Fundamentalists not in your elite bunch? Cos that kind of talk reminds me of Hitler not Jesus.I agree Christ is the only way. I agree we are saved by grace.But what's with all this seperation WT? Are you saying that all fundies are not as righteouss as say another group?If anything, Christ brings the barriers down - we are grafted in because there is no difference between the Jew or the Greek. He doesn't say "this group has sin" - He says that we are sinful (humans). Are you better than a fundie? Don't you generalize? For all you know - there might be one who has pleased God very much - being fundie. Are you omniscient WT? Do you worship Dr Scott or Christ? Cos you have the Gospel according to Scott. Who the f**cks Scott anyway - has he sole access to God's spirit?Do you have freedom to judge without full knowledge?I need answers this time!!!! I seek your position on this!!!!!!Beam me up Scotty - to planet Willowtree!This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 08-04-2004 07:43 PM

Hi Mike:Glad to see you. Sorry Mike that is not what the verses say.In context - Jesus meant what He said and said what He meant.You just don't want accept that works have nothing to do with standing with God. Yes it does - thats exactly what Jesus said.The context has persons rhetorically asking Jesus "have we not done" thus and such in your name ?Jesus responds "I never knew you"There is your key.All those wonderful works (which He admits are wonderful) BUT they were performed while estranged from Christ.Therefore, the wonderful works are "works of iniquity" BECAUSE they were done APART from Christ.The only way you obtain Christ and His benefits is FAITH apart from the works of the law. This is basic christianity 101.When we act in faith and get God to manifest His miracle power in us (born-again-ness) THEN this "new life" of the Spirit in us will inevitably result in good works.IF we perform works with the INTENT of maintaining standing with God then like Paul says "Christ will profit you nothing.....if righteousness comes by works of the law then Christ died in vain" [Galatians]IF we pour ALL of our energy into gospel faith THEN this unleashes the Spirit to propel us to walk pleasing to God. And the fruit of the Spirit only manifests when faith is practiced upon the promises of God. Me too.This is called "besetting sin" the one we do over and over and makes a mockery of ourselves and God.There is NO POWER in knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong TO DO THE GOOD.We know what is right BUT our inherited Adamic natures get the best of us.God knows this.The message of the N.T. is that God will never let us go IF we trust Him by faith."a smoking flax He will not quench" So was Paul's in Romans 7:"who shall deliver me from the body of this death ?"The next verse answers the question: Jesus Christ.And the context for Romans 8 is the Spirit and the preceding 7 chapters which established that FAITH and FAITH alone justifies and obtains the delivering agent: the Spirit.

What brought this on ?What did I say to evoke this ?Please cut and paste and justify this rant.