We are still children to God.

I don't bow to human tyrants, and I won't bow to a divine one. There are certain moral codes that I believe are the most beneficial for the humans that submit to them - they're universal in that sense - and the idea that the lawmaker is him/herself subject to his own law is one of them. If god doesn't follow that law then god is immoral, even if moral law stems from godagain your self righteousness is coming out. Jesus came down and died for your sins , he did not brake a law once, how can you be righteous towards him when you and all humans have sinned . indeed your own righteousness adds to nothing.because your morality is that God must some how judge himself , even though he fully knows everything he has done has been correct and morally correct. you say your not judging him and you want him to be accountable to himself which adds to nothing. in the same way a shopkeeper need not justify himself to a thieving customer!

It's not self-righteousness. I'm beginning to resent that. I suggest you stop using that word to refer to me.I have a moral sense, as do you, as do most humans. Assuming for a moment that such a sense is the result of my creation by god, why should I suspend that moral sense for certain entities? if it's correct, why can't I do the same things god does - kill those that oppose me, curse those that disobey me, etc.? To suggest there's a law for god and a law for me is a double standard. Either the law is universal or it's not law. We don't justify to people. We justify to the law.The thief isn't accountable to the shopkeeper and the shopkeeper doesn't punish the thief. That's called "vigilantism". Both people must justify themselves to the law. So must god, if god exists.

We don't justify to people. We justify to the law.what i meant was ,interpretation - God does not justify himself to humans who commit sin every day . your misunderstanding , the law is for us not God because whether you like it or not you answer to him not vice versa. why would God correct himself for correcting us (as sin is of men not God )'It's not self-righteousness. I'm beginning to resent that. I suggest you stop using that word to refer to me.'but you are and so is everyone , only Jesus makes us righteouss in the eyes of God,because he is without sin , and HIS morals are based on complete and perfect law from God.ok i wont refer to you as this anymore , i was trying to get you to see my point.'Either the law is universal or it's not law.'again the law is for humans 'ten commandments' otherwise it would have in it 'and i God shall not do as i wish because a human who thinks he is more righteous than I whose morals he thinks is better thinks i should answer to him!'

Isn't it? Is god a lawful god, or is he/she a capricious one? The bible implies a god of law and justice. Therefore god is bound by law. When god acts in a way that contradicts the laws god set for us, it's like god is saying this to each and everyone of us. I don't appreciate (mush less worship) a god that thumbs his nose in my face like that.Making the law doesn't put you above the law. God said those laws were a "covenant". A covenant is a two-way street, like a contract. If god has welched on his contract with me, aren't I entitled to point that out? I never said my morals were better than god's. But it's clear that god has a higher expectation of human behavior than he does for his own. I find that to be ridiculous - immoral, even - for a lawful, creatior god.But I don't believe in god, of course. These are problems that I don't have to address. I wonder how you do, though.

'But I don't believe in god, of course. These are problems that I don't have to address. I wonder how you do, though'but i dont suffer from your opinion and so i dont question the justice of God's ways, and also i have answered your questions but they have fell on deaf ears 'the natural man thinks the things of God are foolishness because he is spiritually discerned'

No, I listened - I just rejected your explanations because they're counter to the moral world I believe we live in. Clearly we have differing opinions of morality.

mike the wiz responds to me:

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I seem to recall a time when god killed everybody except 8 people.

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God judges us remember ,

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What does that have to do with anything?The Law is "Thou shalt not kill." And yet, god killed everybody except 8 people.It isn't, "Thou shalt not kill except in these particular circumstances." It isn't, "Thou shalt not kill unless they really deserve it." It is simply, "Thou shalt not kill."So if killing is bad, why does god kill?

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he made the rules because we dont know right or wrong , like now your trying to make him wrong .

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I am not "making" him wrong. I am simply judging him by his own standards. God is the one that says, "Thou shalt not kill." Ergo, it is wrong to kill.Therefore, if god kills everybody except for 8 people, then god must have committed grievous sin. There is no other way to look at it. It isn't, "Thou shalt not kill unless they really deserve it." It is simply, "Thou shalt not kill."Period.

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however since he designed and foreseen you, and is way more intelligent beyond you, even what you can imagine, how can he be made wrong in anything he does .

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Am I not intelligent enough to know the difference between right and wrong? After all, Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and became as gods, according to the Bible. Therefore, I have every right to judge god by his own standards because I, too, am as gods knowing good from evil."Thou shalt not kill." Not, "Thou shalt not kill unless they really deserve it."

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its a brave man who tells him he's wrong to his face on judgement day.

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BZZZZT!Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, mike the wiz. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!Well, Bob, mike the wiz has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, mike the wiz gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you?Besides, that means that judgement will come to god, too, and we will see if he is brave enough to withstand it.

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I also recall something about not bearing false witness,

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God is incapable of sin

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And yet, god lies. I gave you the verses. Why didn't you look them up?

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and is beyond human judgement.

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If you mean we can't do anything about it, that's one thing. If you mean we are incapable of understanding, that's simply incorrect. The Bible says so. When Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge, they became as gods, knowing good from evil. As their descendant, I too am as gods, knowing good from evil. Therefore, I am perfectly capable of determining if god has failed at living up to the standard.And if bearing false witness is a sin, which is what god claimed, then god has sinned since he has lied.

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if you hear my voice then you are of the truth he said ,but since you arent you are incapable of seeing the foolish things of God are wiser than men.

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Where did this come from? Now you're judging me? I thought you just said that humans can't do that. Isn't there something in the Bible about judging not?You seem to have a very malleable opinion about the capabilities of humans to determine right from wrong. Apparently, you're smart enough to know when I'm committing sin in the eyes of god, but you aren't capable of telling if god is sinning. That makes no sense.

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show me the exact words from were you made these ideas and i will interperate them properly

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I already did. Weren't you paying attention?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

'So if killing is bad, why does god kill?'Did Jesus kill when he being God came down to earth, no,infact he fullfilled the law as a man and so he did not kill,so then since there is no one higher than God and Jesus himself put himself under Gods laws he shown us exactly how to obey them and no he did not kill.'The Law is "Thou shalt not kill." And yet, god killed everybody except 8 people.'the wages of sin is death did not Moses say if you will not live by the law you will die by the law ,death is the wages of sin. God himself became a man remember and obeyed all his own laws ,however God is master and there is no one above him therefore HE IS INNOCENT AND PUT HIMSELF UNDER THE LAW .'I am not "'making" him wrong. I am simply judging him by his own standards.'since as a man on this earth you and i have commited sin where as when Jesus was on earth he did not commit sin who are you to judge him?

Are you saying that Noah and the other 7 people on the Ark were not sinners? Jesus didnt sin, wow, he lost his temper several times, dishonoured his mother at least once, and he told so many lies that he makes Walter Mitty look like George Washington!You should really be saying 'who is Jesus to judge anybody when he was as bent as a nine bob note!'Brian.

mike the wiz responds to me:

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So if killing is bad, why does god kill?

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Did Jesus kill when he being God came down to earth, no,infact he fullfilled the law as a man and so he did not kill,

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Non sequitur.I didn't ask about Jesus or what Jesus did while here. I asked about god and specifically mentioned the killing of all humans except for 8 in the Deluge.Try to answer the question I actually asked rather than the one you wish I had asked.If killing is bad, why does god kill?

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so then since there is no one higher than God and Jesus himself put himself under Gods laws he shown us exactly how to obey them and no he did not kill.

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Non sequitur.I didn't say I was higher than god. I said I was as gods since I am capable of determining good from evil. God even says so.Therefore, since I have the ability to determine good from evil, why am I not allowed to do so in the case of god? God says it is wrong to kill people, and yet god kills people.Therefore, god does things that are wrong.If killing is bad, why does god kill?

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The Law is "Thou shalt not kill." And yet, god killed everybody except 8 people.

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the wages of sin is death

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Non sequitur.I am not talking about the consequences of god's sin. I am simply pointing out that god has sinned.By the say, since god is known to lie, and even admits as much, how are we to trust the claim that "the wages of sin is death"? After all, the very first sin (running around naked) wasn't met with death. Neither was the second sin of eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

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did not Moses say if you will not live by the law you will die by the law ,death is the wages of sin.

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Non sequitur.I'm not talking about the penalties. I'm talking about the existence of god's sin.If killing is bad, why does god kill?

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God himself became a man remember and obeyed all his own laws ,however God is master and there is no one above him therefore HE IS INNOCENT AND PUT HIMSELF UNDER THE LAW .

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So what about all those people killed in the Deluge?If killing is bad, why does god kill?

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I am not "'making" him wrong. I am simply judging him by his own standards.

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since as a man on this earth you and i have commited sin where as when Jesus was on earth he did not commit sin who are you to judge him?

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Non sequitur.I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about god. I have not claimed that I am without sin. After all, "it takes one to know one." Instead, I am talking about god's sin.Who am I to judge him? I am one who is as gods knowing good from evil. God even says so.Therefore, I am in the perfect position to judge god. It isn't that I am better than god. It is simply that I know good from evil and thus am perfectly qualified to distinguish when someone has done good and when someone has done evil.If killing is bad, why does god kill?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

'I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about god.'let he who is without sin cast the first stone - Jesus' words (the messiah -God with us ) it is Jesus who will judge us who is God incarnate .'If killing is bad, why does god kill?'ask him , however i cannot answer because i am not God and also i am not worthy to judge him, even so my explanation about him being sinless and dealing with man's sin is sufficient for me , if it is not for you thats not my problem.
Anyway he explains why in the story of the flood - sin.he regretted making such horrible things as people.'Try to answer the question I actually asked rather than the one you wish I had asked.'i have , this arguement with me is futile . as no one can judge God he is not in error you are , all his deeds were are and will be just whether you like it or not God is boss not us!

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let he who is without sin cast the first stone

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So why does God get to damn us?Considering the number of people in Hell (according to Christianity), it seems to me like the first rock got hucked quite a while ago.------------------
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Dan Carroll

'So why does God get to damn us?'you have not listenened,and do not therefore understand what Jesus said.
GOD is sinless therefore can judge us also it is futile to come against him with this arguement. Jesus says we have all sinned however he did not and Jesus IS God incarnate therefore he will judge us.

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you have not listenened,and do not therefore understand what Jesus said.

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I've listened, it just doesn't make any sense to me. Perhaps you can elighten.

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GOD is sinless

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So if I were to kill everyone on Earth except eight people, would that be a sin? If so, why the double standard? Why are we held to more strict rules than God? Is it a "do as I say, not as I do" sort of thing? Sounds a little hypocritcal, doesn't it?Is it without sin to:Blow an entire town off the map because you don't like their sex lives?
Kill one of the only survivors because she turns her head in the wrong direction?
Destroy a pious man's life because you have a bet with another guy over what'll happen?
Throw a baby into a lake of fire for all eternity because nobody sprinkled water on his head when he was born?

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Jesus says we have all sinned however he did not and Jesus IS God incarnate therefore he will judge us.

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I understand that God says he is without sin. But you've now gotten four examples of God sinning, whether he says he has or not. Not even under our judgement, but under his. Under his own rules, God would go to Hell.So why do these rules apply to us, and not to God?-----------
Dan Carroll[This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 05-20-2003]

'So why do these rules apply to us, and not to God?'no i'm afraid you do not get it do you,the rules are for us because we sin , God does not he only corrects or punishes us for our sin,he knows fully well that he is just and you are not .'So if I were to kill everyone on Earth except eight people, would that be a sin?'ofcourse , have you not read what is wrong in the ten commandments .arguing with me that a commandment was not made saying , 'i God shall punish myself for punishing your sin' is simply a waste of time .if you have not sinned how can you judge God when he did not sin even in the flesh?'I understand that God says he is without sin. But you've now gotten four examples of God sinning,'NO do not say this as it is wrong God IS sinless just because you do not follow the rules you somehow want to blame him which is again futile!