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Author Topic:   Do I have a choice? (determinism vs libertarianism vs compatibilism)
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 210 (357818)
10-20-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JavaMan
10-20-2006 1:03 PM


chaos theory
A fourth possibility, that certain systems are chaotic and cannot be pre-determined significantly in advance of occurrance.
Chaos theory - Wikipedia
Among the characteristics of chaotic systems, described below, is the sensitivity to initial conditions (popularly referred to as the butterfly effect). As a result of this sensitivity, the behavior of systems that exhibit chaos appears to be random, exhibiting an exponential error dispersion, even though the system is deterministic in the sense that it is well defined and contains no random parameters. Examples of such systems include the atmosphere, the solar system, plate tectonics, the phosphate starvation signaling pathway in Saccharomyces cerevisiae, turbulent fluids, economics, population growth and the vast variety of thermodynamically open systems operating far from equilibrium.
It could be that choice is one source of chaos in some systems, and not just by humans.
The problem I have with hard determinism is that we do not know anywhere near enough of many variables to come close to tweaking out the deterministic paths -- we don't know what we don't know (ala mr obvious Rumsfield), so we can't know whether determinism applies or not.
Today I had sugar in my coffee, but normally I don't have sugar on anything. It was a spur of the moment decision, and confirmed my personal preference for coffee without.
Reason?

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 210 (358164)
10-22-2006 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Trump won
10-22-2006 11:00 AM


Re: Indeterminism
If free actions are uncaused then one is not responsible for them.
Don't you have this 180o backwards?
If free actions are uncaused then nothing is responsible for them except the person choosing to make them.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 69 of 210 (358385)
10-23-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Trump won
10-22-2006 5:06 PM


Re: Indeterminism
If an action is uncaused then no one did it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the context was about making a choice on an action.
Determinism - the choice is determined and so the action is caused, therefore the person is not responsible, they cannot avoid the choice they make.
If the action is free however, then the choice is the determining factor and the person who makes the choice is responsible for the results.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1427 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 70 of 210 (358413)
10-23-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nwr
10-22-2006 10:12 AM


undeterred indeterminate determinism?
... let me put indeterminism into the mix.
... As best I can tell, there is no evidence to support determinism, and there could be no such evidence.
As an analogy you could have 99 equations in 100 variables that define the result. The solution is inderminate and the final "Why" value depends on the {X} marks the choice input.
The person making the choice is responsible for the choice, but the final result is also controlled by other factors in addition to the choice.

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