Candy and games and responsibility.

duplicate postThis message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-29-2004 08:26 AM

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I do see them, I just don't care.

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What if your parents owned the shop. Or your best friend. Or your sister? Or you?It's all well and good to talk about "the market" as if it is some abstract entity, but "the market" is made up of people.If you want to live in a world where you don't give a shit about people, then I feel sorry for you.

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My job is to screw them to the ground on price, their job is maximize profits - we generally met in the middle ground somewhere.

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It's nobody's "job" to screw anybody.It is your "job" as a consumer to pay for the kind of world you want to live in.If all you care about is yourself, then don't expect anybody to respect your efforts or time in return.If you care so little for your community and your fellow human being that you will waste their time and use a service without paying for it, then I feel sorry for you.I guess ethically you and I are on different planets.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-29-2004 08:53 AM

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Excuse me? There are PLENTY of barriers for entry into the market place.

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Why do you think some communities are refusing to let WalMart open up stores in their area? It's because they know what will happen; all of the smaller, privately-owned businesses will be forced out of business, taking away better-paying, locally-provided (neighbor employing neighbor) jobs and replacing them with lower-paying jobs provided by a corporate entity that is not tied to the community.

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I'm sorry I don't under what any of that rant had to do with barriers to entry.

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The up-market clothes shops do not pay significantly more to the shopgirl than the chain-store.

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I disagree that highly-trained sales people do not get paid significantly more than WalMart workers, particularly if you figure in people on commission. Think automobile salespeople.

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I think we are having some problems due to the differences in language - the chainstore reference is to other clothes stores , the difference between what the shop girl makes in a GAP and a topshop (a downmarket clothes store) is basically nothing (the difference come in the managers salary).

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Ah, but it would level the playing field for other, smaller, locally-owned business to be able to stay in business, thus letting them offer competatively-paying jobs with better working conditions. WalMart will have to raise wages in order to attract enough people to work for them.

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Why should there be a "level playing field"? That suggests that fairness should come into play.

Duplicate post - not sure why.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-29-2004 09:39 AM

huh? what's is going on with all those duplicates.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-29-2004 09:41 AM

and another!This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-29-2004 12:29 PM

last one!This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-29-2004 12:29 PM

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It's nobody's "job" to screw anybody.

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You are joking aren't you? You use the example of car salesmen in another example. Their commission is generally related to how much they can get me to pay for a car (plus extras,extended warrenty etc) - My purpose is to drive the price as low as possible. I try to screw them on price, they try to screw me. That's been the case in ever single business deal I've done or been involved in.Let me give you an another example - I really liked the windows that my neighbour had put in. He paid $15,000 for his, I got the same job for $7,000. Same windows, same fitting, the works. In that case, the neighbour got nailed by the salesman, and then I did the same to the salesman. It's how the system works.

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If all you care about is yourself, then don't expect anybody to respect your efforts or time in return.

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I don't expect them to "respect" my efforts, I expect them to pay for them - no freebies off me. I'm fully aware that other people are trying to do the same thing - I expect no favours and give none in return.

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I guess ethically you and I are on different planets.

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yep.

You don't seem to be listening. I've already explained how the current economic model leaves me no choice but to get the cheapest goods and services. It's a failure of the economic model, not that people don't want high-quality service. They do want it; it's just that the economic model doesn't pay them enough for them to be able to make that choice. But see, because I'm both the market and the labor, where people plunk their dough down changes the choices I have about where I plunk mine.

Which pays off for you in the short term.In the long term, this is the thinking that got us into this mess in the first place. Remember that everything that you've said is true of your business relationships as a consumer is true of your business relationship as an employee. How well do you think that's going to work out for you?

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In the long term, this is the thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.

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1) Well no not really - it's the nature outcome of the economic system that we in the west have pushed onto the way. Bit rich for us to complain when it bits us on the ass.

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Remember that everything that you've said is true of your business relationships as a consumer is true of your business relationship as an employee. How well do you think that's going to work out for you?

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2)oh pretty shitty - that's for sure, that's why I'm looking out for number one. But it goes back to number 1 - unless you want to go to world socialism, you are going to have to bit on it.

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I've already explained how the current economic model leaves me no choice but to get the cheapest goods and services. It's a failure of the economic model, not that people don't want high-quality service. They do want it; it's just that the economic model doesn't pay them enough for them to be able to make that choice.

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That's not a failure of the model, it's just the elements within have shifted with to exlude you (in a certain sense)mostly promoted by people talking about wanting good service but not wanting to plunk down that quid for it.That's the hard reality of it. That's the free market for you.

I don't think we have to go to outright socialism to have an economic system that doesn't evenutally fuck us over. Let's not act like there's only two alternatives, here. For instance, from Slashdot a couple of weeks ago:

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In a recent interview, Howard Rheingold (author of Smart Mobs) discussed the possibility of a 'new economic system' born of 'unconscious cooperation' embodied by such technologies as Google links and Amazon lists, Wikipedia, wireless devices using unlicensed spectrum, Web logs, and open-source software. Rheingold speculates that 'the technology of the Internet, reputation systems, online communities, mobile devices...may make some new economic system possible....We had markets, then we had capitalism, and socialism was a reaction to industrial-era capitalism. There's been an assumption that since communism failed, capitalism is triumphant, therefore humans have stopped evolving new systems for economic production.' However, Rheingold is worried that established companies with business models that are threatened by these new technologies could 'quash such nascent innovations as file-sharing -- and potentially put the U.S. at risk of falling behind the rest of the world.

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It's easy to curse the darkness, CK. Why don't we find some candles to light?

But see, the "free market" makes promises. If it fails to deliver on that promise, that's a failure of the market.The market does what it does. If it's not doing what is best for everybody, it's a failure.

[quote]But see, the "free market" makes promises. If it fails to deliver on that promise, that's a failure of the market.The market does what it does. If it's not doing what is best for everybody, it's a failure. [/qupte]Why on earth do you think the free market is about doing the best for everyone? The people who pushed the free market on you made the promises.