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Author Topic:   We are the gods..
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 76 of 142 (16905)
09-08-2002 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tokyojim
09-07-2002 7:44 PM


Hello Tokyojim,

I am not ignoring your posts but I am a bit busy this weekend. I will respond to your posts this week. Hope you stick around for a continued debate.

Cheers,
Mammuthus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tokyojim, posted 09-07-2002 7:44 PM Tokyojim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Tokyojim, posted 09-08-2002 10:36 AM Mammuthus has responded

  
Tokyojim
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 142 (16908)
09-08-2002 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Mammuthus
09-08-2002 8:48 AM


Thanks for the note, Mammuthus.
TJ
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Mammuthus, posted 09-08-2002 8:48 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 9:28 AM Tokyojim has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 78 of 142 (16950)
09-09-2002 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Tokyojim
09-06-2002 12:30 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Tokyojim:
OK Mammuthus, what is your definition of a Christian? I think we are using these terms in two different ways if you think Hitler was a Christian. Enlighten me on what a Christian is.
TJ

I am surprised you want my definition of christian. Anyway, anyone who proposes that they believe in the bible (both literalists and non-literalists) and in jesus christ. By definition you have to believe in jesus to be a "christian". I include Hitler because he was a catholic, never excommunicated, and in his own view a christian.

Though I could be wrong, I am assuming you are asking me this as a typical introduction of the fundie argument that anyone who does anything wrong is not a "real" christian i.e. Hitler said he was catholic but murdered millions of people so he cannot be a christian type of argument. Correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Tokyojim, posted 09-06-2002 12:30 PM Tokyojim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Tokyojim, posted 09-13-2002 6:24 AM Mammuthus has responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 79 of 142 (16951)
09-09-2002 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Tokyojim
09-06-2002 12:47 PM


Tokyojim says:
Did I claim that you are a co-signer? Forgive me for making any assumptions. I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were aware of and had read the Humanist Manifesto. If you have read it, you prefer to make me look stupid by accusing me of making assumptions. If you haven't read it, then I guess you were too embarrassed to admit it. You always keep things so vague in your messages that one never knows. Have you or haven't you read it? Regardless, it doesn't matter. Here is what the leading atheists are saying about atheism:

I say:
"actually I have not read it and I am not being vague in my posts...you constantly make assumptions about what my position really is and then claim I am dishonest when I tell you otherwise.

Tokyojim says:
You may not agree with your fellow atheists on this, but believe me they are organized and they have an agenda. Read the Humanist Magazine if you donĀft believe me. HereĀfs one quote from there:
***********************************************

I have no reason to beleive you on this because you have shown absolutely no knowledge about other worldviews beyond your own personal beliefs. And by the way, your relgion has its own rather nasty agenda i.e. forced theocracy.

Citation of Tokyojim's:
"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being.

>I for one find this part of the paragraph to be bullshit much like you do I guess.

These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level--preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new--the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism."
John Dunphy, A Religion for a New Age, Humanist, Jan.-Feb. 1983, p.

> This guy is over the top...your point..that all atheists agree with this? You must be truly incapable of logical thought if that is the case.<

HereĀfs another one from the now deceased Madelyn Murray OĀfHair: "The atheist realizes that there must not only be an acceptance of his right to hold his opinion,

but that ultimately his is the job to turn his culture from religion, to eliminate those irrational ideas which have held the human race in intellectual slavery."The atheist must abandon his defensive positions, take up the cudgels and go forward, rather than into the retreat of apathy."
Madalyn Murray O'Hair, founder of the American Atheists Organization. Quotes from her speech at their annual convention in Sacramento, California, on April 10, 1993 (from C-SPAN)

"I would have interpreted the second part as meaning that atheists must defend themselves from those who would force religion upon them." But since I do not have the entire speech at hand I cannot judge it as it is not in context.

Jim says:
So you see IĀfm not just spouting off here about saying humanism is a religion. It's leaders are dedicated evangelists and they encourage others to become as such. Evidently they think their worldview is right. I guess that makes them bigotted like me.

I say:
"What about atheists...again, YOU are lumping everyone together including me into a specific worldview that I do not necessarily share. You are either doing that because of a conceptual limitation due to the narrowness of your own worldview or because you are insecure of your own worldview and do not wish to be exposed to what other people actually think. I believe you have every right to your own beliefs but you have no right to dictate them to others. You have a truly annoying tendency to try to link me (for example) and other peoples worldviews to examples that fit your agenda but do not represent reality.

Cheers,
Mammuthus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Tokyojim, posted 09-06-2002 12:47 PM Tokyojim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tokyojim, posted 09-13-2002 10:21 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded
 Message 99 by Tokyojim, posted 10-08-2002 10:59 AM Mammuthus has responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 80 of 142 (16952)
09-09-2002 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Tokyojim
09-06-2002 1:21 PM


TJ replies:
OK so you don't believe in an absolute standard, but for you personally that doesn't mean that anything goes. However, if someone else does believe that anything goes, that would be OK? If you answer no to that question, then you are appealing to an ultimate standard of morality which you just said doesn't exist. Or at least to a standard which you think is better than the others.
***********************************

Exactly, I appeal to my own standard. And I have news for you...you do exactly the same...regardless of what your religious background, you make your own decisions...you may believe you are a remote controlled automaton where some other being makes your choices for you but if you decide that murder is compatible with christianity then you will murder without hesitation. I actually find your standards lack...you merely say "I am a sinner" go out and "sin" and then say "oops sorry god...I am a bad boy" and then feel like everything is ok...I have to face myself and cannot get off the hook so easily.

Tokyojim asks:
By the way, when you use the word evil in the above question, how do you define evil and good as an atheist?

I reply: That which does harm....oh and religious fundamentalism

**************************************************************
TJ REPLIES:
Aha. So here is the standard which you are appealing to. Anything that does harm is wrong. Evil. Is that just physical harm or does that include emotional harm? Are you saying here that this standard applies to everyone in the world or is that just your personal view?

I say:
It includes both physical and emotional harm. It is my own standard but I think many people of different backgrounds would agree with some parts of it....but not all.

Mammuthus, I'm curious. Please answer me on this. Don't just make some sarcastic mark and avoid my question! Would you say that any of the following actions cause harm to others?

Divorce....It depends, if a marriage is really miserable then divorce can provide immense relief.

abortion....Again, it depends...I think the conditions both physical and emotional of the person who is pregnant outweigh the needs of a clump of cells.

marital spats....again, it depends...a good argument can actually resolve conflicts between partners and lead to a more harmonious marriage...two people will never agree on everything so assuming constant "wedded bliss" is sheer stupidity.

pre-marital sex...nope, I had plenty...saw no problem with it.

adultery.....sure, it damages the trust in a relationship though I do know couples that have survived it...but it causes a huge amount of emotional harm

alcoholism....earlier you asked about getting drunk...drinkin is moderate I see no problem...alcoholism is a mentally and physically destructive disease so it obviously does harm.

lying.....depends...if you stick a gun in my ear and say "do you believe in the bible and if you answer no I will kill you" then I would have no problem lying at that moment.

disrespect for people...could you qualify this?...I am not really sure how you are defining this.

making fun of others.....not really, I rib my friends and they rib me back...it keeps us from taking ourselves too seriously. If you mean making fun of say a physically disabled person I would say it could very well cause them emotional harm and is wrong.

refusing to forgive others....It does the person who refuses to forgive more harm than anything else.

using abusive speech, swearing....depends on the context.

watching porn movies(ask your wife if that would cause her harm if you were to watch them if you want to know the answer to that? OK, I know, I'm assuming you are a male and that you are married. Forgive me.).........no problem...you are correct on both counts, I am male and married....the only possible harm I see with watching porn is that the dialogue is so bad it makes my head hurt...and after about 15 minutes it gets boring...German tv has an immense amount of porn on late at night...my wife laughs at me if I watch it.

How do you apply your standard to your every day life?.....I am not sure how this fits in with the rest of your list. Please elaborate...othewise my answer is by living every day.

And finally, what does it matter in the end if you were married, found someone you liked better, ditched your wife and family, and went after personal happiness?

.....that is a risk everyone takes whether married, dating, religious, atheist, whatever. And again, it is not a black and white issue. You would have to weigh staying together with someone you do not love and the associated stress on you and that person as a result versus the harm caused by leaving one person for another. This happens every day to people of all different backgrounds.

So you caused harm to a few peopel? So what? There is nobody who will hold you accountable for that trespass of your personal behavior code. What is your motivation to follow it?

"To sum up my answer in one word.."bullshit"!!! I am accountable to myself. So are you. In some cases my behavior could trespass secular laws in which case I have the added accountability to society.

jim askes:
I'm curious to see how your personal behavior code applies to your every day life.

I say: It applies quite nicely thank you.
Cheers,
Mammuthus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Tokyojim, posted 09-06-2002 1:21 PM Tokyojim has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 81 of 142 (16953)
09-09-2002 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tokyojim
09-07-2002 7:41 PM


In this conversation you have actually answered something we were debating. So people who do horrible things can be christian you admit. This negates your argument that an atheist is more likely to exhibit anti-social tendencies (for which you have no evidence anyway). And how do you know that any of the people or groups are going against their worldview? Relgion is frequently used to justify horrible acts...you seem to exclude the consideration that those people are fervent believers who interpret christianity in a different way from you...who is correct?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tokyojim:
[B]

quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
quote:
Originally posted by Tokyojim:
OK Mammuthus, what is your definition of a Christian? I think we are using these terms in two different ways if you think Hitler was a Christian. Enlighten me on what a Christian is.
TJ

Are the following people or institutions Christian, TJ?;

Timothy McVeigh

The Ku Klux Klan

Randal Terry

The Catholic priests who protected criminal child molesors because they were also priests

TJ REPLIES:
I'm not excusing what they did, but so what if they are?

Your point is what?

Because some Christians struggle with sin Christianity is bad? Is that your point? That same thing can be turned on you as well.

Atheism has some pretty dark spots in its history. And as I mentioned in another post before, when a Christian does evil, he is going against his worldview. It is inconsistent with his beliefs.

Regards,

TJ



This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tokyojim, posted 09-07-2002 7:41 PM Tokyojim has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Mammuthus, posted 09-11-2002 8:05 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 82 of 142 (17161)
09-11-2002 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Mammuthus
09-09-2002 6:12 AM


....................I guess I left everyone speechless
This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2002 6:12 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded

  
Tokyojim
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 142 (17295)
09-12-2002 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Quetzal
09-07-2002 3:57 AM


Quetzal,
I'm taking my computer into the shop today. DOn't know how long I'll be gone.
Regards,
TJ
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Quetzal, posted 09-07-2002 3:57 AM Quetzal has not yet responded

  
Tokyojim
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 142 (17340)
09-13-2002 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Mammuthus
09-09-2002 5:23 AM


Originally posted by Tokyojim:
OK Mammuthus, what is your definition of a Christian? I think we are using these terms in two different ways if you think Hitler was a Christian. Enlighten me on what a Christian is.
TJ

MAMMUTHUS:I am surprised you want my definition of christian. Anyway, anyone who proposes that they believe in the bible (both literalists and non-literalists) and in jesus christ. By definition you have to believe in jesus to be a "christian". I include Hitler because he was a catholic, never excommunicated, and in his own view a christian.

************************************8
TJís reply:
The reason I wanted your definition of a Christian is that you are throwing around the word as if it has no meaning. We are obviously using the term in two different ways and so will never agree until we can at least understand what we mean by the term. (By the way, I capitalize the word ďChristianĒ because my word processor prompts me to do so, so I thought it is grammatically correct.) You said your definition of a Christian is someone who believes in the Bible(both literalist and non-literalist) and in Jesus. This is a standard definition used by religious pollsters to determine someoneís religion and so in this sense, America could be said to be mainly a Christian country or at least that there are more Christians in America than practitioners of other religions. I disagree with this description of America, but using this definition, you could say that.

When I use the term Christian, I am referring to someone who, yes, believes in the Bible and believes in Jesus. When I use the term ďbelieve in JesusĒ I do not mean simply an intellectual recognition or even mental assent of the Biblical facts. Someone can even believe that Jesus was Godís Son and that He died for their sins and still not go to heaven. James 2:19 says You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! He is saying. Even if you believe in your head that there is one God, so what. Big deal. Even the demons know that, but they are not saved. Intellectual knowledge and assent to the facts is the first step to becoming a Christian, but if that is all there is, then that person is not a true believer. There must be a recognition of sin and a genuine repentance resulting in a spiritual rebirth for a person to qualify as a Christian according to the Bible. Being baptized as an infant doesnít count. Baptism cannot make anyone a Christian. If that baby grows up and decides to go his own way, then he is not a Christian. The Bible says ďWhoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.Ē Each person must confess his sins, repent, and place his faith and trust in Jesus as His Savior. The Bible says this in Matthew 7:15-29.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!' Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall. And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

It is clear from the above passage that Jesus knew there would be false prophets that infiltrate the church. He also said there would be many others who think they are saved, but really are not. So it is valid for me to say that NOT EVERYONE WHO THINKS THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN REALLY IS.

MAMMETHUS, EVEN BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION, HITLER IS NOT A CHRISTIAN as the following quote will show. Hitler once revealed his attitude toward Christianity when he bluntly stated that religion is an:
Ď Ö organized lie [that] must be smashed. The State must remain the absolute master. When I was younger, I thought it was necessary to set about [destroying religion] Ö with dynamite. Iíve since realized thereís room for a little subtlety Ö. The final state must be Ö in St. Peterís Chair, a senile officiant; facing him a few sinister old women Ö The young and healthy are on our side Ö itís impossible to eternally hold humanity in bondage and lies Ö. [It] was only between the sixth and eighth centuries that Christianity was imposed upon our peoples Ö. Our peoples had previously succeeded in living all right without this religion. I have six divisions of SS men absolutely indifferent in matters of religion. It doesnít prevent them from going to their death with serenity in their souls.í
So you see, even by your own definition of a Christian, Hitler doesnít fit the facts. This was evidently penned by Hitler from 1941 Ė1944. He obviously doesnít believe in the Bible nor in Jesus Christ at least at this time in his life. And he even says that ďWhen I was younger, I thought it was necessary to destroy religion with dynamite so it is not even a recent change in thought he is revealing here. His beliefs as revealed in this quote are abundantly clear: the younger people who were the hope of Germany were Ďabsolutely indifferent in matters of religioní. As Keith noted, the Nazi party viewed Darwinism and Christianity as polar opposites.
(Hitler, A., Hitlerís Secret Conversations 1941Ė1944, With an introductory essay on The Mind of Adolf Hitler by H.R. Trevor-Roper, Farrar, Straus and Young, New York, p. 117, 1953).

Granted, Hitler was baptized a Catholic and was never even excommunicated. Evidently he Ďconsidered himself a good Roman Catholicí at one time, and at times even used religious language. But he threw it all away as the above quote makes clear. He clearly had strong anti-Christian feelings as an adult, as did probably most of the Nazi party leaders. But you have to remember that he was a politician and as such he openly tried to win over the church and exploit it to accomplish his own personal goals.

If you were to convert to say Hinduism, I could not claim that your atheistic worldview had anything to do with some crime you might commit as a Hindu. Why? Because you threw away your atheistic worldview and now are living by the Hindu worldview. Well, if Hitler threw away his Christian worldview and embraced atheism, how can we call him a Christian? How can we blame the Christian worldview for his crimes? This is the problem I have with your claim that Hitler was a Christian. If you say, in his early years he embraced Christianity, I could agree with that. I still donít believe he was truly saved because of what happened, but working with your definition of a Christian, you might be able to call him a Christian.

Mammuthus continues:
Though I could be wrong, I am assuming you are asking me this as a typical introduction of the fundie argument that anyone who does anything wrong is not a "real" christian i.e. Hitler said he was catholic but murdered millions of people so he cannot be a christian type of argument. Correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.

TJ REPLIES:
Thank you for asking before attacking. I already explained why I asked. So your assumption is at least partly right. I wanted to understand the logic behind your claim that Hitler is a claim. Now I understand. As I thought, you have a totally different definition of what a Christian is. It comes down to whose definition of a Christian is most accurate. I think the words of Jesus are more accurate and true than your definition. Nothing personal, but Jesus is the founder of Christianity and I think he knows better than you. The above passage has much to say about what a true Christian is.
And yes, I certainly would argue that if Hitler was a true Christian, he would not have murdered millions of people like he did. That is so contradictory. Who would believe that unless they have a specific reason for wanting that to be true? Doesnít it make more sense to say that although he may have been baptized as an infant and perhaps embraced Christianity early in life, he later totally rejected it and embraced atheism which does not make any moral demands on a person? What he did can fit in with that kind of a worldview, but it cannot fit into a Christian worldview.

Did you know that he was even trying to get rid of Christianity itself? That seems strange if he was really a true believer. He was deeply influenced by evolutionary ideas which is clear from his whole concept of eugenics which he so wholeheartedly endorsed and literally tried to put into practice. It is interesting that much of the opposition to the eugenic movement came from German Christians. Even secular scientists like Sir Arthur Keith and the late Dr. Stephen J. Gould recognize the influence that evolution had on him.
Sir Arthur Keith said this: ĎThe German FŁhrer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.í(Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947.)

Hereís an interesting quote from Hitler himself: In the 1933 Nuremberg party rally, Hitler proclaimed that Ďhigher race subjects to itself a lower race Öa right which we see in nature and which can be regarded as the sole conceivable right,í because it was founded on science (Tenenbaum, J., Race and Reich, Twayne Pub., New York, p. 211, 1956). I could find many more similar quotes to show the influence of evolutionary thinking on Hitler and Nazi Germany in general
.
It is interesting that during the Nuremburg Trials, when Hermann Goerring was on trial for what Germany did to the Jews, etc, his argument was that what we did was in accordance with our laws. He claimed that the Nazis were on trial only because they lost the war, not because they were guilty of any crime ó a trial of the victors over the vanquished. (Persico, J.E., Nuremberg: Infamy on Trial, Penguin books, NY, USA, p. 82, 1994.) After all, the Nazisí own laws permitted persecution of the Jews. He was arguing that there was no absolute moral standard that can be used to apply to this situation. (Which by the way is what you yourself claim Mammuthus Ė no absolute moral standard) He said that what they did was in accordance with their own morality. But the Chief U.S. Prosecutor, Justice Robert Jackson, appealed to Ďmoral as well as legal wrongí and Ďthe moral sense of mankindí. (Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 2, The Avalon Project at the Yale Law School http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/11-21-45.htm Jackson argued that what the Nazis did was not only illegal, but that it clearly violatated a higher, universal moral law against mass murder, no matter what their own laws said.

Would you agree with Jackson? If no, how can you condemn Hitler for what he did? You claim that morality is left up to our own personal standards, our own character and choices. Hitler made his choices. How can you condemn him for it? It may violate your code and my code, but he is entitled to have his own code is he not? Like Goerring said, what he did was not illegal in his country. Atheists have no absolute moral standard to appeal to. In this sense, the atheistic worldview leaves room for someone like Hitler.

My plans changed. I didn't take my computer in yet. I think now tomorrow.
Regards, TJ


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2002 5:23 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 7:23 AM Tokyojim has responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 85 of 142 (17344)
09-13-2002 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Tokyojim
09-13-2002 6:24 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tokyojim:
Originally posted by Tokyojim:
OK Mammuthus, what is your definition of a Christian? I think we are using these terms in two different ways if you think Hitler was a Christian. Enlighten me on what a Christian is.
TJ

MAMMUTHUS:I am surprised you want my definition of christian. Anyway, anyone who proposes that they believe in the bible (both literalists and non-literalists) and in jesus christ. By definition you have to believe in jesus to be a "christian". I include Hitler because he was a catholic, never excommunicated, and in his own view a christian.

************************************8
TJís reply:
The reason I wanted your definition of a Christian is that you are throwing around the word as if it has no meaning. We are obviously using the term in two different ways and so will never agree until we can at least understand what we mean by the term. (By the way, I capitalize the word ďChristianĒ because my word processor prompts me to do so, so I thought it is grammatically correct.) You said your definition of a Christian is someone who believes in the Bible(both literalist and non-literalist) and in Jesus. This is a standard definition used by religious pollsters to determine someoneís religion and so in this sense, America could be said to be mainly a Christian country or at least that there are more Christians in America than practitioners of other religions. I disagree with this description of America, but using this definition, you could say that.

When I use the term Christian, I am referring to someone who, yes, believes in the Bible and believes in Jesus. When I use the term ďbelieve in JesusĒ I do not mean simply an intellectual recognition or even mental assent of the Biblical facts. Someone can even believe that Jesus was Godís Son and that He died for their sins and still not go to heaven. James 2:19 says You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-and tremble! He is saying. Even if you believe in your head that there is one God, so what. Big deal. Even the demons know that, but they are not saved. Intellectual knowledge and assent to the facts is the first step to becoming a Christian, but if that is all there is, then that person is not a true believer. There must be a recognition of sin and a genuine repentance resulting in a spiritual rebirth for a person to qualify as a Christian according to the Bible. Being baptized as an infant doesnít count. Baptism cannot make anyone a Christian. If that baby grows up and decides to go his own way, then he is not a Christian. The Bible says ďWhoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.Ē Each person must confess his sins, repent, and place his faith and trust in Jesus as His Savior. The Bible says this in Matthew 7:15-29.
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!' Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall. And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

It is clear from the above passage that Jesus knew there would be false prophets that infiltrate the church. He also said there would be many others who think they are saved, but really are not. So it is valid for me to say that NOT EVERYONE WHO THINKS THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN REALLY IS.
*************************************************************+

Ok TJ,
Then by your logic, you are not a christian either or at the very least, you do not know if you are one. It is a useless definition. If someone thinks they are and thinks they are saved or whatever but according to you cannot really know then there is NO definition of a christian.

"There must be a recognition of sin and a genuine repentance resulting in a spiritual rebirth for a person to qualify as a Christian according to the Bible." How do you know who has or has not fullfilled this criteria?

Again, you seem to think that YOU personally are the highest authority regarding all worldviews...you have a god-complex
_____________

MAMMETHUS, EVEN BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION, HITLER IS NOT A CHRISTIAN as the following quote will show. Hitler once revealed his attitude toward Christianity when he bluntly stated that religion is an:
Ď Ö organized lie [that] must be smashed. The State must remain the absolute master. When I was younger, I thought it was necessary to set about [destroying religion] Ö with dynamite. Iíve since realized thereís room for a little subtlety Ö. The final state must be Ö in St. Peterís Chair, a senile officiant; facing him a few sinister old women Ö The young and healthy are on our side Ö itís impossible to eternally hold humanity in bondage and lies Ö. [It] was only between the sixth and eighth centuries that Christianity was imposed upon our peoples Ö. Our peoples had previously succeeded in living all right without this religion. I have six divisions of SS men absolutely indifferent in matters of religion. It doesnít prevent them from going to their death with serenity in their souls.í
So you see, even by your own definition of a Christian, Hitler doesnít fit the facts. This was evidently penned by Hitler from 1941 Ė1944. He obviously doesnít believe in the Bible nor in Jesus Christ at least at this time in his life. And he even says that ďWhen I was younger, I thought it was necessary to destroy religion with dynamite so it is not even a recent change in thought he is revealing here. His beliefs as revealed in this quote are abundantly clear: the younger people who were the hope of Germany were Ďabsolutely indifferent in matters of religioní. As Keith noted, the Nazi party viewed Darwinism and Christianity as polar opposites.
(Hitler, A., Hitlerís Secret Conversations 1941Ė1944, With an introductory essay on The Mind of Adolf Hitler by H.R. Trevor-Roper, Farrar, Straus and Young, New York, p. 117, 1953).

Granted, Hitler was baptized a Catholic and was never even excommunicated. Evidently he Ďconsidered himself a good Roman Catholicí at one time, and at times even used religious language. But he threw it all away as the above quote makes clear. He clearly had strong anti-Christian feelings as an adult, as did probably most of the Nazi party leaders. But you have to remember that he was a politician and as such he openly tried to win over the church and exploit it to accomplish his own personal goals.
******************************************************************

LOL!!!

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mein Kampf never appeared on the index of Forbidden Books. He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain, and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of these countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.

Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.

Mein Kampf is full of biblical references.

But since you don't think anyone is a christian other than you what difference does it make what the truth is?
_____________________________________________________

If you were to convert to say Hinduism, I could not claim that your atheistic worldview had anything to do with some crime you might commit as a Hindu. Why? Because you threw away your atheistic worldview and now are living by the Hindu worldview. Well, if Hitler threw away his Christian worldview and embraced atheism, how can we call him a Christian? How can we blame the Christian worldview for his crimes? This is the problem I have with your claim that Hitler was a Christian. If you say, in his early years he embraced Christianity, I could agree with that. I still donít believe he was truly saved because of what happened, but working with your definition of a Christian, you might be able to call him a Christian.

1) You don't know what Hitler believed or that he through away his christianity
2) Your definition of christian excludes everyone or at least makes it completely unknowable.
_____________________________________________

Mammuthus continues:
Though I could be wrong, I am assuming you are asking me this as a typical introduction of the fundie argument that anyone who does anything wrong is not a "real" christian i.e. Hitler said he was catholic but murdered millions of people so he cannot be a christian type of argument. Correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.

TJ REPLIES:
Thank you for asking before attacking. I already explained why I asked. So your assumption is at least partly right. I wanted to understand the logic behind your claim that Hitler is a claim. Now I understand. As I thought, you have a totally different definition of what a Christian is. It comes down to whose definition of a Christian is most accurate. I think the words of Jesus are more accurate and true than your definition. Nothing personal, but Jesus is the founder of Christianity and I think he knows better than you. The above passage has much to say about what a true Christian is.
And yes, I certainly would argue that if Hitler was a true Christian, he would not have murdered millions of people like he did. That is so contradictory. Who would believe that unless they have a specific reason for wanting that to be true? Doesnít it make more sense to say that although he may have been baptized as an infant and perhaps embraced Christianity early in life, he later totally rejected it and embraced atheism which does not make any moral demands on a person? What he did can fit in with that kind of a worldview, but it cannot fit into a Christian worldview.
*************************************************************

Since you claim that even believing you are a christian and saved is not evidence that you are you have no definition of a christian for Hitler or anyone else to violate.
_________________________________________________________-

Did you know that he was even trying to get rid of Christianity itself? That seems strange if he was really a true believer. He was deeply influenced by evolutionary ideas which is clear from his whole concept of eugenics which he so wholeheartedly endorsed and literally tried to put into practice. It is interesting that much of the opposition to the eugenic movement came from German Christians. Even secular scientists like Sir Arthur Keith and the late Dr. Stephen J. Gould recognize the influence that evolution had on him.
Sir Arthur Keith said this: ĎThe German FŁhrer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.í(Keith, A., Evolution and Ethics, Putnam, NY, USA, p. 230, 1947.)
_________________________________________________________

Hitler sure was of great use to the Catholic church...so he certianly did not try to destroy it but used it to further his goal...and the church was fully compliant.

You are also full of crap regarding eugenics...if you actually read anything about it, the entire movement was based on the stupidity of Francis Galton who wished to co-opt evolutionary theory to proclaim that the upper class of society is more "fit". Darwin rejected this claim because it was a misrpresentation of the theory. That Hitler used a complete distortion of evolutionary theory that even the originator of theory rejected as a support for his aims is irrelevant.
Just as Hitler being a christian and using the bible to justify genocide does not make christianity intrinsically bad either.
_________________________________________________

Hereís an interesting quote from Hitler himself: In the 1933 Nuremberg party rally, Hitler proclaimed that Ďhigher race subjects to itself a lower race Öa right which we see in nature and which can be regarded as the sole conceivable right,í because it was founded on science (Tenenbaum, J., Race and Reich, Twayne Pub., New York, p. 211, 1956). I could find many more similar quotes to show the influence of evolutionary thinking on Hitler and Nazi Germany in general
**********************************************************

Then define the theory of evolution. If you think that Hitler was following evolutionary biological principles (even those set out by Darwin) show it with references. Your cluelessness is striking...here read this book before you open your mouth again and stick your foot in it....In the Name of Eugenics: Genetics and the Uses of Human Heredity -- by Daniel J. Kevles

You will find more quotes linking Hitler and Nazi Germany to christianity by the way.
__________________________________________

It is interesting that during the Nuremburg Trials, when Hermann Goerring was on trial for what Germany did to the Jews, etc, his argument was that what we did was in accordance with our laws. He claimed that the Nazis were on trial only because they lost the war, not because they were guilty of any crime ó a trial of the victors over the vanquished. (Persico, J.E., Nuremberg: Infamy on Trial, Penguin books, NY, USA, p. 82, 1994.) After all, the Nazisí own laws permitted persecution of the Jews. He was arguing that there was no absolute moral standard that can be used to apply to this situation.
**************************************************+

He was arguing that he was not breaking any Third Reich German laws. and if they had won he would technically have been correct. Luckily they lost.
_________________________________________________________

(Which by the way is what you yourself claim Mammuthus Ė no absolute moral standard)
*****************************************************+

That you wish to link me with Nazi's (again!) says more about your character than mine. By your definition I guess you are no longer a christian or would this be the debate tactic of jesus to
_____________________________________

He said that what they did was in accordance with their own morality.
****************************************++

He said that what they did was in accordance with their own LAWS...you are a revisionist...maybe you are one of those types that think the holocaust did not happen? Hitler from his own quotes demonstrates how their actions were in accordance with christianity
________________________________________________

But the Chief U.S. Prosecutor, Justice Robert Jackson, appealed to Ďmoral as well as legal wrongí and Ďthe moral sense of mankindí. (Nuremberg Trial Proceedings Volume 2, The Avalon Project at the Yale Law School http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/11-21-45.htm Jackson argued that what the Nazis did was not only illegal, but that it clearly violatated a higher, universal moral law against mass murder, no matter what their own laws said.

Would you agree with Jackson?
********************************

Nope, it was clearly illegal but there is no universal moral law.
____________________________________________________

If no, how can you condemn Hitler for what he did?

What he did violates MY standard...or are you claiming again that I am a nazi? nazism certainly did not violate the "moral" standards of millions of other Germans and their allies including millions of christians. Christianity provided absolutely no buffer against horrid acts as you claim it would. Your worldview is entirely consistent with mass murder...you just have to justify it in the name of your god.
____________________________________

You claim that morality is left up to our own personal standards, our own character and choices. Hitler made his choices. How can you condemn him for it?
****************************

He violated my standards...and that of a lot of other people both religious and non-regligious...so I can condemn him completely. According to your own defintion of christianity, nobody can know if they are christian or not so they are left to think what they think, act accordingly and hope they are acting in accordance with a set of PERSONAL standards. Everyone acts according to their own personal standards including you.

It may violate your code and my code, but he is entitled to have his own code is he not?
________________________________

He did have his own code didnt he? And he acted upon it.
_________________________

Like Goerring said, what he did was not illegal in his country.
************************************************

A secular law problem...that has been fixed.
********************************

Atheists have no absolute moral standard to appeal to. In this sense, the atheistic worldview leaves room for someone like Hitler.
_____________________________________________________

Religious people have no absolute moral standard to appeal to, they can each claim that they are acting on their own gods order, interpret (the bible for example) any way they see fit, add to it (like the mormons), and claim that everyone else is mislead. With such a fluid landscape of standards coupled with the arrogance of saying what is right for you is right for everyone is exactly what leads to someone like Hitler.
__________________________________

My plans changed. I didn't take my computer in yet. I think now tomorrow.
Regards, TJ


Cheers,
Mammuthus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Tokyojim, posted 09-13-2002 6:24 AM Tokyojim has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Andya Primanda, posted 09-13-2002 7:58 AM Mammuthus has responded
 Message 93 by Mammuthus, posted 09-18-2002 8:11 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded
 Message 111 by Tokyojim, posted 10-12-2002 11:21 AM Mammuthus has responded

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 142 (17347)
09-13-2002 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Mammuthus
09-13-2002 7:23 AM


Sorry to butt in. Mammuthus, you're a German. Do you have first-hand experience of Hitler's reign? I'm curious about something. Did Hitler really massacre Jews because they were planning to take over the world? My friends the Muslim activists say that Hitler killed Jews because he's concerned about their hidden conspiracy. He didn't finish the job, and look, today the world's run by Jews!

Continue it, you two. I'll do the knock-out counts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 7:23 AM Mammuthus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 8:20 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded
 Message 122 by allen, posted 11-17-2002 10:05 PM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 87 of 142 (17349)
09-13-2002 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Andya Primanda
09-13-2002 7:58 AM


Hi Andya,
When has TJ ever gotten a KO?

Actually, I am American. I had a great grandfather who was a German jew but he left Germany in 1901 or so and came to America. Other than him I have no German ancestors that I know of. I have no first hand experience with WWII since I am only 34, though my father in law was a 3 year old in Munich and watched it burn down....now that I think about it, by 3rd Reich standards I am 1/8th jew (great grandmother was Russian jewish) so I would have been killed to.

I don't think anyone really knows what motivated Hitler other than a quest for power. Anti-semitism was common prior to the 3rd Reich all over Europe so he used it as a way of influencing racists so that they would support him in his quest for power. Why specifically did he hate jews?...I hear some Germans say that Hitler applied for a position in an art school in Austria and was rejected by the jewish headmaster. After that he became a rabid anti-semite. But this could also be a fairy tale and it is not a topic I have ever really researched carefully.

Cheers,
Mammuthus

quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Sorry to butt in. Mammuthus, you're a German. Do you have first-hand experience of Hitler's reign? I'm curious about something. Did Hitler really massacre Jews because they were planning to take over the world? My friends the Muslim activists say that Hitler killed Jews because he's concerned about their hidden conspiracy. He didn't finish the job, and look, today the world's run by Jews!

Continue it, you two. I'll do the knock-out counts.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Andya Primanda, posted 09-13-2002 7:58 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 8:24 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 88 of 142 (17350)
09-13-2002 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Mammuthus
09-13-2002 8:20 AM


Religious people have no absolute moral standard to appeal to, they can each claim that they are acting on their own gods order, interpret (the bible for example) any way they see fit, add to it (like the mormons), and claim that everyone else is mislead. With such a fluid landscape of standards coupled with the arrogance of saying what is right for you is right for everyone is exactly what leads to someone like Hitler.
************************************************

This should have read:

SOME religious people have no standards to appeal to.....

I don't think all religious people are as bigoted and arrogant in their worldviews as TJ. Plenty of relgious people have very nice Personal standards....just like plenty non-religious people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Mammuthus, posted 09-13-2002 8:20 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by John, posted 09-13-2002 10:37 AM Mammuthus has responded

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 4518 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 89 of 142 (17352)
09-13-2002 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Tokyojim
09-08-2002 10:36 AM


TJ says:

This is a standard definition used by religious pollsters to determine someoneís religion and so in this sense, America could be said to be mainly a Christian country or at least that there are more Christians in America than practitioners of other religions. I disagree with this description of America, but using this definition, you could say that.
********************************************************+
HI TJ
I missed this the first time through. This is a bit off topic perhaps, but what is your definition of America?

Cheers,
Mammuthus


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Tokyojim, posted 09-08-2002 10:36 AM Tokyojim has not yet responded

  
Tokyojim
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 142 (17360)
09-13-2002 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Mammuthus
09-09-2002 5:36 AM


Tokyojim said:
Did I claim that you are a co-signer(of the Humanist Manifesto)? Forgive me for making any assumptions. I was just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were aware of and had read the Humanist Manifesto. If you have read it, you prefer to make me look stupid by accusing me of making assumptions. If you haven't read it, then I guess you were too embarrassed to admit it. You always keep things so vague in your messages that one never knows. Have you or haven't you read it? Regardless, it doesn't matter. Here is what the leading atheists are saying about atheism:

Mammuthus replies:
"I actually I have not read it and I am not being vague in my posts...you constantly make assumptions about what my position really is and then claim I am dishonest when I tell you otherwise.

Tokyojim replies again:
You may not agree with your fellow atheists on this, but believe me they are organized and they have an agenda. Read the Humanist Magazine if you donít believe me. Hereís one quote from there:

MAMMETHUS says:
I have no reason to beleive you on this because you have shown absolutely no knowledge about other worldviews beyond your own personal beliefs. And by the way, your relgion has its own rather nasty agenda i.e. forced theocracy.

TJís reply:
I think I proved my point with the quotes. Let me rephrase what I said to avoid misunderstanding. SOME atheists are organized and the leaders of the group have a real agenda. SOME view their worldview as a religion. I'll expect the same treatment when you speak of Christians.

My religion has an agenda? Yes, Jesus told us to go into the whole world and preach the gospel and redeeming the culture is part of the cultural mandate God gave us. When we talk about making laws in society, the problem becomes ĎWhose morality do we follow?í Either we legislate Christian morality or the morality of the majority or whatever, but atheists want laws to protect them and Christians want laws to protect them as well. You must agree that we must legislate morality so a certain extent or there would be total chaos in society. The question is how far do we go on that? I would probably fight to go further than you do, but we both want our morality legislated to a certain extent. I freely admit that. To you it is a nasty agenda. To me it is an agenda to provide a moral base for society to preserve order and prevent itís collapse.
********************************************

Citation of Tokyojim's:
"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being.

>I for one find this part of the paragraph to be bullshit much like you do I guess.

TJ
"These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level--preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new--the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism."
John Dunphy, A Religion for a New Age, Humanist, Jan.-Feb. 1983, p.

ō This guy is over the top...your point..that all atheists agree with this? You must be truly incapable of logical thought if that is the case.

TJís REPLY:
MAMMUTHUS, did I or did I not preface these quotes with this statement:

"You may not agree with your fellow atheists on this, but believe me they are organized and they have an agenda."

What is it again that you are accusing me of? I gave you the benefit of the doubt from the very beginning. Please have the decency to at least read what I write before jumping all over me.

The point of the quote as you should know if you follow the conversation back in our various posts, is to show you that there are SOME very prominent atheists who do see their worldview as a religion and they are organized and they do have a scary agenda! You seemed to be unaware of this and I just wanted to point out that fact.

************************************************
TJís quote: Hereís another one from the now deceased Madelyn Murray OíHair: "The atheist realizes that there must not only be an acceptance of his right to hold his opinion,
but that ultimately his is the job to turn his culture from religion, to eliminate those irrational ideas which have held the human race in intellectual slavery."The atheist must abandon his defensive positions, take up the cudgels and go forward, rather than into the retreat of apathy."
Madalyn Murray O'Hair, founder of the American Atheists Organization. Quotes from her speech at their annual convention in Sacramento, California, on April 10, 1993 (from C-SPAN)

MAMMUTHUS:
"I would have interpreted the second part as meaning that atheists must defend themselves from those who would force religion upon them." But since I do not have the entire speech at hand I cannot judge it as it is not in context.

TokyoJim says:
So you see Iím not just spouting off here about saying humanism is a religion. It's leaders are dedicated evangelists and they encourage others to become as such. Evidently they think their worldview is right. I guess that makes them bigotted like me.

MAMMUTHUS' reply:
"What about atheists...again, YOU are lumping everyone together including me into a specific worldview that I do not necessarily share. You are either doing that because of a conceptual limitation due to the narrowness of your own worldview or because you are insecure of your own worldview and do not wish to be exposed to what other people actually think. I believe you have every right to your own beliefs but you have no right to dictate them to others. You have a truly annoying tendency to try to link me (for example) and other peoples worldviews to examples that fit your agenda but do not represent reality.
*********************************************

TJ REPLIES AGAIN: Again, a groundless attack given my above statement saying that you might not agree with this but...

But let me ask you this. On what basis is their opinion wrong? Aren't you being a little narrow-minded in calling them wrong and your views right?

And I apologize for giving the false impression that I'm insecure in my own worldview. Obviously neither of us are. We're both hateful bigots to use your term.

Itís funny though. You lump me together with all Christians and think that is all right donít you? You say Hitler was a Christian. Your definition of a Christian will not allow me to distinguish between a true Christian and a Christian by name only. You call that a fundy game even though it is a distinction Jesus makes in the Bible. It looks like now you want me to make different categories for atheists as well.

It seems that it is you who does not want to be exposed to what other atheists think and are preaching. Rather than me not understanding the worldview of others, it seems it might be you that doesnít even understand the logical conclusions of your own worldview. You didnít even know about these atheistic preachers.

Maybe humanism and atheism and agnosticism could be more accurately called a "faith" rather than a "religion" since there arenít ordinances as such and it isnít very well organized.

But every atheist, humanist, and agnostic has his own philosophical assumptions that he places his faith in.

Mammethus, let me ask you again, ďDo you think your worldview or your own particular brand of atheism is right or at least the best overall choice?Ē Be careful in your answer or you might label yourself as a hateful bigot. Anyone with convictions seems to be a bigot in your view.
CHEERS, TJ

PS I am planning to send my computer by mail to get fixed tomorrow so I probably won't check in for a while.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Mammuthus, posted 09-09-2002 5:36 AM Mammuthus has not yet responded

  
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